Coming back to the UK after 45 years living abroad.

Icanhandthemback, while it’s true that you are supposed to renounce any other nationality if you take US citizenship, it’s different in practice. A sister who’s lived in the US since her early 20s and was married to an American (later widowed) took out US citizenship after several decades there, and even at the ceremony the MC said he knew that many would be hanging on to their old passports.

Though in fact even if there was a ceremonial burning of your British passport, you could still apply for another - it wouldn’t destroy your right to citizenship.

------> I had no time for Mandela.

Age UK have some really informative factsheets which cover everything from health through benefits, housing, pensions etc. Please read them and contact them with any questions, circumstances can vary hugely and have huge impacts on rights.

www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/benefits-entitlements/returning-to-the-uk-after-living-abroad-heading/

This is all very Biblical. May I suggest a re-reading of the parable of the Prodigal Son: Luke chapter 15, verses 11 - 32.

Seems a bit unfair to come back to use the NHS which they have not paid for what did they do with all the money they earned in SA over the last 45 years

I know.

Many of the white people I knew were very anti-apartheid.
However, I have encountered some whose opinions shocked me.

I'm not setting myself up as an authority. You may if you wish.

This is my main point: It isn't ok to just sit and accept this stuff. We have to say, 'No. This was wrong.' Because otherwise we capitulate.

We were colonials. Some are still acting as if they are. It is wrong.

I speak of Zimbabwe, actually.
It became a beacon of democracy, of course, when Mugabe took over.

You knew one student?
So presumably you are more of an authority than me.

Callistemon

Thanks kittylester
I do know this as facts from people I know (or knew) well.

As I said, Callistemon. My black SA student spoke several times about hers and her families experiences. Individually, there will of course have been white people who were supportive of the fight, who were not racist. But ultimately, whites were not wanted. Giving SA students a British colonial education. Employing maids, nannies, a house boy... Living in areas where blacks were banned other than for work. What else is that if not white privilege?

As Bluecoat said, it is one thing to have been born into it, but to go as an adult, into a violent murderous regime as an automatic member of the ruling class just because of your skin colour...

It isn't ok to just sit and accept this stuff. We have to say, 'No. This was wrong.' Because otherwise we capitulate.

My SA student was really upset at the end of term. I teach international literature. A range of nationalities and ethnicities (not all black, before you leap to conclusions - Margaret Atwood is my favourite). My placement at the school was a 6 month contract. The new teacher is white SA. My poor student is devastated. Not only are all the new teachers texts white authors, she's worried about covert racism. So no, it isn't over for black SA. The wounds are very deep.

As if we didnt know about Nelson Mandela!!! And all that went on in SA.

Anyone who didn't is either too young or had their head in the sand.

Thanks kittylester
I do know this as facts from people I know (or knew) well.

Good reasonable post callistemon

GagaJo

Callistemon, anyone that benefitted from apartheid was racist.

I feel as if I've entered a parallel universe on this thread! Did any of you watch the news during the overthrow of apartheid? Did you support the fight of Nelson Mandela?

You only know what you post from second-hand, Gagajo

How do you know that those about whom we post were not opposed to apartheid? Did their best to educate the population so that one day they could run their own country as they wished?

How do you know that those who were born under apartheid in fact hated the fact that, walking along the street, a black person would have to step into the road to allow a white person to pass?
I know that some white people hated this but it was law.

Ps I think you know very little about what happened in Zimbabwe.

Most of us supported Mandela; we decided not to live in SA when we could have done. I remember meeting Desmond Tutu when I was very young too; our friend was at Cambridge with him.
Most of us may know far more about this than you may realise.

GagaJo

Callistemon, anyone that benefitted from apartheid was racist.

I feel as if I've entered a parallel universe on this thread! Did any of you watch the news during the overthrow of apartheid? Did you support the fight of Nelson Mandela?

anyone that benefited from apartheid was a racist
Even those who educated black pupils?

Simplistic and very prejudiced, Gagajo!

If you live in a country where your race is privileged over another, you benefit even if you don't have racist views yourself. This point has been made by the Black Lives Matter movement.

You could have been the nicest white person in apartheid South Africa but you benefitted by living in a country built on cheap black labour. And people were not innocents fifty years ago, with no concept of right and wrong. How could you live under apartheid and not know that black people were paid less, had inferior education, inferior health care, inferior housing, less opportunities, separation from their families, restricted freedom and were treated without respect? Or that those who protested were arrested, beaten, tortured or killed? Knowing these things, you knew you were living in an immoral society and closed your eyes to it, or you believed that it was right for whites to rule blacks, or you left or you became a freedom fighter.

To be honest, I think that people who emigrated to apartheid South Africa are more morally culpable than those born there. They saw, from outside, what was happening and they went to join in.

And, I only asked what if....

Sorry EV, that post was in response to one by the OP. I was watching GS at the same time as typing and hadn't clicked send.

I wasn't talking about black people GagaJo, I was simply saying that I'd help my family.

I sympathise and understand that kitty was asking about a difficult family problem, and wondering if the UK could help. That’s totally natural, because it’s her family. We all would move heaven and earth to help our families. I certainly would, and I think all of you would too.

However, that doesn’t change my feelings about people who emigrate, pay no taxes or insurance to Britain for most of their working life, and then want to return to use our NHS, which is on its knees after Coronavirus, and anticipating another winter spike. People have had appointments cancelled, cancer treatments cancelled, surgeries cancelled etc. We do not need people coming into the country to use avail themselves of NHS care, when they have spent most of their lives in other countries.

Additionally, whilst I’m sure everyone would agree that the apartheid is vile, and thankfully long gone, it cannot be said that the vast majority of people who emigrated to SA, did so to benefit the South African people. They went for the good life. And now life is not so good, many have returned. This does not apply to children born out there. They made no conscious choice in the matter.

GagaJo I am not defending apartheid one little bit but all the different tribes also hated each other, and probably still do, I don't know, so the situation was never as clear cut as you seem to think. I spent time in South Africa so I saw it and experienced it for myself.

Really? A country where black people were routinely treated as sub-human, banned from certain areas, forcibly removed from their native land and had their assets stripped from them. While white immigrants were given every privilege.

I wonder how you'd feel if black immigrants were welcomed to the uk, white people were thrown out of their homes and brutally murdered if they complained. If white people were told they were 3rd class citizens, beneath black and coloured.

I'm glad I don't have a family such as those who object, I couldn't live with a conscience. Your own family ? Good grief.

I really don't see any problem in allowing anyone to return. If my family wanted to return to the UK, having lived/worked longer in Aus. then I'd go all out to help them. It's not a big deal is it ? They wouldn't be depriving anyone else of their dues etc. nor would it affect anyone.

My bil and his wife did gaga and rejoiced with the rest of the world and with hope for the country they love.. Turned out well didn't it?

If you read the thread you would see that they cant actually get 10 miles down the road to see their son and grandchildren because of all the black people protesting against the corrupt government. This has the unfortunate effect of stopping their son coming to help his parents.

Also, it is ridiculous to suggest that any one who went to SA was racist. That is just narrow minded prejudice.