Retirement Dilemma

Retire somewhere that you want to be. I have countless friends who moved to be nearer grand children, children, siblings etc. Then the grandchildren grew up and didn't visit, children moved for careers or marriages broke up, siblings fell out, parents died. Go where you will be happy and can make a life and let them all visit you.

My husband took early retirement because of deafness at 57. We let the bungalow and caravanned round Europe for ten years hoping to eventually buy a house in France. We took occasional trips back to U.K. and family joined us for holidays. Unfortunately my husband died suddenly of a heart attack at the age of 67..
I spent the next two years in Spain in winter and summer in U.K. before returning to our bungalow where I have been alone for the past thirty three years. It was a good thing we kept the bungalow.
You can make all sorts of plans but they don’t always work out.

Friends bought a house in the Cotswolds but a flat in London, everyone wants to stay in one or the other.

We moved to Spain before Brexit to ensure our rights would be continued eg free healthcare, pension paid over here and so on.

Since the pandemic has stopped us being able to travel, I have missed my family more and am determined to go back next year for a visit come what may. But, am not sure I could see myself ever going back to live in the UK unless something happened to my husband and I was left alone.

I have found making friends over here is so much easier if you are prepared to get out there and join different groups. Remember, everyone is basically in the same boat, far away from families so we depend on each other for that support. In the UK, because we had always moved around, I found it quite difficult to make true friends as most people still had their childhood friends nearby and it can be near impossible to infiltrate those kind of long term relationships.

As some have suggested, move back to your UK home, making it quite clear to your son & daughter it may not be a permanent move, give yourself a good 12 months to try it, then if it doesn’t suit, try another country.

Yes, it might be sensible to think about the future, but don’t waste the life you have got by worrying about ‘what if’s’. You could have fantastic 5-10 years or so, or a miserable as hell 20 years left ( this is just an example), no one knows what’s round the corner, so live the best life you can, while you can!

What a lot of interesting stories there are here. I am sure that OP will find some helpful nuggets among them.

OP's daughter lives in the UK, so I think she will have a good idea of the issues we face and how we are dealing with them. For me, there is no choice - this is where I belong, and I have to do my best to make it a good place to live.

There’s a social thing you should consider. Long-term expats are used to living in an environment where most of their circle of acquaintances are of a similar class, level of education and income as they are, and there’s a more limited range of ages. Children are all educated at local ‘British’ Schools or go to boarding school, so all mix with similar expat kids. It’s not just the weather and amenities that are attractive, it’s the social milieu that you are part of.

That will never be the same back in the UK. Even in a small village community, there is much more diversity of class, education, income, age and status. It can be infinitely more interesting and ‘real’ than the expat bubble, but it requires a level of humility and effort to integrate into what is, for the returning long-term expat, effectively a foreign culture.

Jaye complained that ‘people here have a very different way of life and don't want to hear about the great times we had living abroad!’ As an ex-expat and a child of expats, I can say with confidence that one guaranteed way to bore the pants off people is to drop ‘When we lived in the Gulf/ Africa/ the Far East …’ into every conversation. It just isn’t that interesting to most people, and most expats don’t get that, so they get a bit of a reputation as snobbish bores quite quickly. However, if you retire to, say, Paphos, where there are a lot of expat retirees, the expat lifestyle continues until you are too old, frail or dotty to enjoy it. Many Spanish destinations are more focused on UK based folks with second homes, so you won’t necessarily get the expat vibe there.

I have immeasurable pleasure living less than an hour from one of my DD and two GC and an adorable whippet. In enriches both of our lives immensely and we see them regularly but I do not offer regular child care as I value freedom and spontaneity too much!. My other DD and her family live over 3 hours away but in a beautiful part of the UK near the coast so DH and I enjoy many short breaks there.
I’m fed up of people knocking the UK. It’s a wonderful place to live with so much beautiful countryside and interesting towns and villages. I have travelled very widely and would not live anywhere else.
I know I’m lucky having both my daughters and their families in this country….with the very dubious travel uncertainty I would hate to have to rely on air travel to see them.
Even though we see each other regularly DH and I rent a large house in a wild beautiful place and we all stay there every year.
I feel very lucky but relationships have to be worked at. Always best to have a good discussion about all the options!

Move near your daughter and be part of her life and the lives of any children she might have. Your son and his family will visit you in the UK - as the novelty of a Spanish holiday would very soon wear off. In the UK you have the NHS and a very pleasant, secure, tolerant and peaceful environment.

I understand exactly how you are thinking - we have sold our main residence (a larger residence) and bought two smaller residences, one in France and one in the UK. My daughter lives in the UK and we have been living in the Alps in France. It used to be easy for us all to pop and see each other but Covid stopped that so we now spend 6 weeks here and 6 weeks there. It seems to work quite well. If my daughter wasn't in the UK I wouldn't really return it just feels such a hectic place to be. Personally my choice would be to be in France full time as it is such a more simple way of life however the OH would rather be in the UK. At some stage we will need to return but I am hoping not too soon and that the 6 weeks / 6 weeks works for us all for the time being.

We came back to the UK in our early seventies after 15 years in Spain. We settled in a small village in Oxfordshire approximately an hour and a half from family. We have been made welcome by the village but have to accept that our friendships will stay at a superficial level.

We missed the lifestyle and the friendships we had in Spain, and especially the weather. Since coming back we both feel we have aged and developed ailments. Our lifestyle was an outdoor one in Spain and we find the long winters very hard to deal with.

Our solution was to buy a small house in Spain in the area we previously lived in. We can spend two periods of 90 days per year under the new regulations but are no longer entitled to health care. We both feel we made a mistake by returning to the UK and giving up our residence rights.

Before you make any final decisions I would spend time in your home in the UK, preferably in winter, to give you a more realistic idea of living here after so long away.

The grass is not always greener.

Anniel I think that GrannyGrumps has misunderstood something. For those of us who moved to the EU whilst the UK was still a member there was an agreement that our state pensions would increase in line with those paid to UK residents. For most other countries the pension does not increase once you have left the UK so, if you leave the UK when you are 65 and live until your 85 or 95 you will still received the same amount as you received at 65. ie the amount that you receive will be sent in stone from the date you leave.

My understanding is that those of us who are resident in EU countries will continue to receive the annual increases but I wouldn't put it past this government to put a stop to that.

A friend who retired to Spain had the lonely task of managing a partner with early dementia in a language which wasn't their mother tongue. While awaiting diagnosis he lost a lot of money, scammed over property deals and invesents. They had to relocate back to the UK and lost a huge amount more money in doing so, mostly due to soaring property prices in the UK. This further damaged their financial security and as he'd been the main breadwinner, left her in a difficult position when, sadly, he died not long after a diagnosis on the NHS. May be worth modelling a worst case scenario as part of your decision making imho, how might either of you cope if I'll or alone.

You gave lived in places far and wide from your family so far and enjoyed it. You seem to be placing an awful lot on something that may never happen eg DD and GC. Your idea of choosing somewhere central so both DS and DD can visit seems to fit with what you like and hopefully what your family will enjoy too.

GrannyGrumps1,

Could you elaborate on the plan to stop Brits overseas collecting their pensions? I am now 87 and retired at 66. Currently I am overseas staying with my son. I came in November 2019 but the virus intervened but I am now booked to return here. Apart from some healthcare concerns I am considering to end my days here as I have plenty of help here and two dogs who I love. My son lives alone and he lives in a large house so we have plenty of space so we do not spend a lot of time cooped up in the same living space. I would really be affected if I lost my state pension.

I do not think the government could remove our pensions retrospectively but if what you say is true, I will have to make enquiries from the state pension providers.

Please reply.

For us, reaching 60ish was the start of a new adventure. I think that provided you keep your present house in the UK to future proof you against property price increases, why not do what you both would like for a few years. You can always change your mind when you get to 70. That's still young.

You really do have a dilemma, don't you? I have no idea what I would do in your position.
However, you don't say how long your DS has been in his current location, but your DD may be thinking that it's her turn to have you closer.
My aunt and uncle lived in Spain but returned to the UK for healthcare reasons as they reached their later years.
Have you discussed this with either of your children? Their views might surprise you.
I think, as others have said, that in the end you should do what makes you happiest. Any decision is going to bring regrets if it is imposssible to be close to both offspring at once, so make the move that will give you less regrets if you can.

Grannygrumps1

Something to consider…… the government are planning to stop paying brits pensions if they live abroad. It’s something that’s in the pipeline. Would this affect you in any way which might sway your decision.

Could you provide a link/reference to the bit about the govt planning to stop paying pensions to Brits abroad please?

I lived in Menorca before it got too hot for my husband ! Then we moved first to Brittany (where he found it too cold !) and then down to SW France where he died a couple of years ago. I loved both countries but decided in the end, as I had a house left to me in the UK, and visited often that I would come back ....I really do miss especially Menorca, but life alone there would not be great..but it is a beautiful island and I was so tempted to buy a small flat there to come and go ....then I thought ah, I would be subject to paying Spanish taxes, having (after Brexit) no reciprocal health agreement (apart from now, if I became resident (I still have my Residencia which I kept renewed ....but that has now changed also, after Brexit and is more complicated !) and there would be the cost of someone to look after a property ....even in one of those tourist spots like a complex, with pool, etc etc ...and they tend not to be in or near the towns (lets face it, there are not too many ;towns; on Menorca, but I would choose to live in Alayor or Ciutadella as they do have transport all year round (I have a Spanish driving licence which doesn't expire like the UK one does !) it is still VERY tempting .......but my friends say why don't you just rent a property for a month or so at a time (now, of course, if you are resident in the UK you are unable to be out of the country for more than 90 days a year after Brexit !) AND when I have to give up driving there it is not easy for getting around to shops, etc (not that there are many !) but I would still love to return. France, again we lived in a very rural part of SW France and I was ok after my husband died, because I had a car....but some women who were left alone could not drive ...nearest supermarket 10km in three different locations ....nearest train station 12 km, nearest airport almost 100 km .....ok for me, as I drive but no use if you don;t unless you live in a town or a city (i.e. Bordeaux has trams, trains busses and several taxis ...easy to get around and several large University hospitals ) BUT again, I do look to go back but I would have to pay private health insurance and to cover all my conditions (I got several quotes, from different companies ) it would cost in the region of 2,000 Euros a month as well as paying my Mutuelle top up insurance which you must have plus French tax (I still have to pay that as I kept my French bank account open in case I ever returned !)......and what do you do when you become old and incapable ? My husband was in a care home, an excellent one, but it cost me 4,000 euros a month .....the French lady who lived next to us paid only 1,000 Euros a month in the same home, as obviously being French, they have as well as taxes, elderly care, medical ins et al deducted from their salaries (they don't like it but there again, her pension was 2,000 euros a month and the same for her husband ...so you get what you pay for ....you just have to live long enough to get it back !) SO somewhat reluctantly I returned but I love it ...before lockdown, I was getting used to being 'alive' again and not buried in a field ...time enough for that ! but my UK licence is over 50 years old and I would need to convert it back and can't be bothered, so driving is not on ...I deliberately chose the outskirts of a City where I had never lived before, on the coast which is wonderful ...I have an international airport, a world class concert hall with classical and other concerts , a ferry to Amsterdam (been on it to nip to C & A !) busses and taxis galore, and cheap ...bus pass you can use on the Metro ....the other day I went to Durham ...30 minutes and nothing to pay ! taxis are plentiful and cheap ....in fact if you work it out, it is cheaper than running a car ...the only time I miss the car is if I want to go somewhere that would probably take me 30 minutes and can take more than an hour on the bus ,.but hey the time is all mine ! Getting back into the health service was quick and easy ...there are a lot of big University teaching hospitals here....clubs to join, the U3A activities, volunteering for the RNLI, coffee shops, large shops (although sadly with the current situation a lot of those have gone ...and none of the activities I got used to for a few months also went with COVID !) but slowly opening up again .....I walk along the beach, paddle (NO way am I getting into the North Sea for a bit of wild swimming ....I don't care if it is good for you or not !) I have also an international airport where I could nip over to France or to Germany to see my friends ....also direct to Menorca (but you have to take the Jet2 holiday plane to go direct !) High speed train to London (about 2.5 hours) Edinburgh about an hour away ...walks in the Northumberland countryside or Hadrian's wall .......so many things to do and when I get too old for that I will go off to Dignitas rather than use my money to pay thousands a month for a care home !!!! each to his own ! I do have one daughter here, but she hasn't spoken to me for 14 years so hey ho ...her life ! so all in all, best of both worlds ....but although still toying with the idea of buying a flat in either Menorca (I am booked AT LAST !) to get back end of July ) or in France, I think all in all that would not be a good idea for me .....but if you are a couple, and have a lot more years ahead of you, and can afford it after Brexit then go for it ...you only get one life and it is short as I have discovered, having lost four friends this year (not from COVID ..) take each day as it comes ...we had a friend who used to say No one is promised tomorrow and that is sadly so very true !!! Good luck

It has surprised me that so many grandparents, having moved to be near their AC, express surprise that the amount of contact they subsequently have with them is less than they anticipated.

It doesn’t matter whether you are moving 200 miles or 2000, After the initial euphoria of having their parents much closer, contact surely settles into what young families can fit into their already busy lives.

I feel it is very easy and tempting to imagine our AC are just waiting for us to move closer to complete their family circle. Whereas in reality, our adult children and their families have been filling their time quite successfully without us. Sometimes, as in this case, for many years.

I feel you need to be clear on your reasoning behind your choices and be very cool headed about decisions you make. Remember the only constant in life is change.

For what it’s worth, here’s the perspective of an adult child of retired parents.
My parents wanted to find a place to retire to. They took holidays in the regions they thought might be suitable for their desired lifestyle- some access to city & town amenities, likelihood of weather suitable for outdoor hobbies most of the year, cultural attractions, reasonable connections for travel to see family overseas and across the country, likelihood of finding people to connect with as old or new friends.
(They are in the US.) After a visit to one popular retirement destination, they ruled it out because it made them feel old before their time.
They found another region that fit their budget and lifestyle requirements. It was 45min-2 hours away from anyone they knew, but they found community and friendship because the people were welcoming and they had interests in common. They joined adult education classes, volunteering and other groups to find new friends.
They had decided to move away from the region we grew up in and they’d known for decades even though they had enjoyed living there. They miss it, but not the extreme weather. They still visit every few years and sometimes with us, the extended family, in tow.

For many practical reasons, they ruled out moving to one of the countries their adult kids live in.

They find it difficult to be far from us when we can’t travel to see each other due to Covid, but previously we enjoyed visiting them and exploring their new home region.
Their travel to see us has come with more difficulties due to jet lag and other stresses. (We can’t always take as much time off work or unwind or find space to relax together in our homes which are smaller than theirs.)

Knowing they’d be far from their kids, they made sure to invest in the right level of insurance and keep enough savings to cover high levels of in-home carer support in case they needed it in the future. They chose a home all on the ground floor so they wouldn’t need to worry about stairs or having to move house if they became infirm. They made renovations to accommodate extended family visits.
Do they have regrets? There are pluses and minuses to everything. Being far from their kids and grandkids is painful but we try to ease that with long weekly video calls, postcards, care packages as well as trying to visit in person (pre-Covid) once or twice a year.

As grown ups with kids living far from our parents we can’t take the grandparents for granted as free childcare providers and that’s fine.

What can you do to have your cake and eat it too? What can you do to hedge your bets or change your mind in 5-10 years if your initial choice isn’t what you’d hoped?
What will your finances allow as your contingency plan? Perhaps speak with a financial advisor or retirement planner to clarify your range of options and contingencies so you have a clearer idea of what will make your head, heart and future self happy?

Hi Nansnet. Does your decision now actually have to be final? Since you are not sleeping worrying about it would it help to feel that if you DID find you'd made the wrong decision you could move again? You probably wouldn't want all that hassle again, but you are still quite young and able so it probably wouldn't be impossible and would lessen the dilemma considerably. I have a son & family in NZ and other children in West Australia whom I live quite near to and hoped to see a lot of the grandchildren when we moved here. I don't. They are so busy with their own lives and the children want to be near their friends so even though we are about an hour away it's not what the want to do too often. Good luck whatever you decide.

I think the idea of two homes, the larger one being easy for all the family to reach, sounds excellent. We moved away from our DC 15 years ago but have recently moved back to be near our youngest DD who has adopted two children. It was the right decision, though we have downsized significantly. We also have a larger terraced house by the sea which all the family can use.
It's made a huge difference to me to be near my DD and my GC.

Thinking very long term, it's good to have family nearby when you eventually get really doddery and by then difficult to make major moves. It seems clear to me the answer is to move back near DD. Hands on with the grandparenting and help for yourself later on. Son loses out. You could, if affordable, have a big annual family get-together in the hot country. Winter sun break for husband. I know a lot depends on finances, also your current age.

Furthermore, how would you handle managing a medical condition, especially serious, in a country whose language you do not master?

Please dont think i am trying to discourage you.
We are placing very common life situations

Don't forget that your health may not always be as good as it is now. We are no longer part of the EU so long-term health problems could be a very very expensive problem.