Woman

trisher

Doodledog suppose your law is enacted. A transwoman uses a female facility and therefore commits a crime. Someone reports her and she is arrested. It turns out she was badly beaten and raped the last time she used a men's room. Are you really saying you would criminalise her?

It's not 'my law'. There is no such law - I was simply asking you whether you would support such a law, but I guess from your response that you wouldn't.

In a case such as you describe, it would be tragic if someone found themselves in such a position, but she would only be reported if she were using a designated female space - simply being around women is not, and no-one has suggested that it should be, an issue.

As no law has been drafted yet, there would be plenty of opportunity to define the terms, to decide what we mean by 'transwomen' (which the TWAW mantra does not allow), to define what constitutes a female space, and how that is signalled, and to specify what sort of behaviour would contravene the law.

Mollygo, I think I missed that post too. However, life's to short to chase it up.

But this argument is not just down to gender critical women or individual trans people, safe spaces or biology. It has been created and amplified by the trans activists and the murkier pools of social media, aided and abetted by organisations who should behave better. A minority of activists have infiltrated organisations, tinkered with policies, lit the blue touch paper and Boom! We are now waking up to find that even the word woman is offensive. Here we are today worrying about hospital wards and men in women's sports and wondering how this could have happened.

Give me strength!

I have no ** idea! It was my friend who took her child swimming. Not me. I wasn't there. I don't live in her town, so I have never visited the pool. I used the incident as an example of how these situations can (and do) arise when there are no sensible rules about what is a man and what is a woman.

It doesn't matter, anyway. A man taking his children swimming could do what my husband did, and use the cubicles, taking the children into his with him, or dressing separately if the family were not inclined to undress in front of one another. There is no need for a man (however he identifies) to be in a female communal changing room.

This is another deflection from the point, which you persistently ignore or divert away from, but is, as Molly says, that transwomen are insisting on their rights over women, that there is a lot of confusion about how far and to what extent people can object to this, and that this is where 'the patriarchy' are asserting their power. When 'women' become a sub-class of 'men' we have no rights, no safe spaces, no sex-specific research that might help us, and we disappear in all sex-based statistics.

This is not about a small number of men who feel that life is unbearable as they want to be women. It is much, much bigger than that, and I am not at all convinced that you don't know this.

I don't presume to know your agenda, but all I can think of is that either you feel backed into a corner and can't accept that your 'right on' support for all minorities has been misplaced, you genuinely see men's rights as more important than women, or you are some sort of plant. Your assertion that your views are somehow part of feminism just don't stack up.

Doodledog suppose your law is enacted. A transwoman uses a female facility and therefore commits a crime. Someone reports her and she is arrested. It turns out she was badly beaten and raped the last time she used a men's room. Are you really saying you would criminalise her?

I wouldn't expect you to Mollygo in fact I might be worried if you did.
I didn't by the way say I supported transrights over women's rights I said I had been accused of doing so. Really it isn't rocket science, but I can't decide if you deliberately misunderstand or not.
Where have transpeople asked that their rights be considered over natal women's? Apart from a few activists (and I really don't consider extremists typical of any group of people. Goodness knows what I could post about extreme anti LGBTQ people)

By the way nonsense is a two way traffic system.

Sorry Trisher, I must have missed the post when you supported women’s rights over transwomen’s rights. There is no equal playing field when it comes to rights if one set opposes or overrides the rights of another.
As for not supporting the rights of one group over another, if transwomen weren’t insisting that their rights override those of natal women, there wouldn’t be any need for discussion and that’s the patriarchy game that’s being played out in front of us.

I love your accurate statement is your post where you say “but I digress”. I admit to often thinking that of your posts many of which ‘I don’t find viable or acceptable’.

So these safe female spaces where women are with toddlers. Is there one for men as well? Most of the family changing rooms I know are just that family ones. They are used by family groups. Children use them with their mothers and their fathers sometimes together sometimes separately. Of course if they are female only you have the problem of when you send your male child off to take his chances in the men's changing rooms. And of what a man does when he brings his small children swimming, or are you assuming only women care for toddlers?

Are you Catfishing us ??

Where in the name of Sylvia Pankhurst are we going to find hen parties of women willing to lurk about in toddler group swimming sessions in case of wandering males? These days most women hold down paid work, and/or have other things to do. Ridiculous.

As Molly said, it would be great if you could stop diverting questions by not answering but wandering off into other nonsense. When I asked about 'safe spaces' above, I was referring to places which are designated as being for female use. Places where women might be naked, ill, vulnerable or otherwise unwilling to be in the company of men. I would have thought that that would be obvious from the context of a toddler session in a swimming pool with a communal changing room, but I hope I have cleared up your 'confusion' with this explanation.

I will ask again. Do you believe us when we say that it is only when women are in safe spaces (as defined above) that we are concerned about being in the company of transwomen?

Mollgo I have been accused of supporting trans rights over women's rights. Of denigrating others feminism (apparently making suggestions about action instead of rhetoric is this. Which makes you wonder about the suffragettes and Deeds Not Words-but I digress). Of not caring about women who are subjected to violence, of supporting men. Of all sorts of things simply because I don't believe any of the stuff being posted by most of you is either viable or acceptable.

As I said in my earlier post my pool bans anyone from stripping off in the communal showers area. Problem solved. You strip in a cubicle or you can be banned. No question of discrimination. No question of staff being afraid to implement. Everyone safe.

I did think of posting - but I know how seriously you take this that what you actually needed was a hen party in that pool. They would undoubtedly greet any show of genitals with derisory and insulting remarks. Which might solve the problem. They certainly wouldn't be intimidated.
So perhaps there is your solution.
Form an organisation recruiting groups of women like hen parties who can target any place a man or transwoman displays their genitals. Once they have dealt with a few, word would get round that actually women aren't intimidated by the sight of a penis and it would stop.
Women protecting women by being assertive. There's a new idea.

To put the record straight on rights I believe everyone has them. I don't believe one group of people having theirs attacked benefits another group. I think once you start playing into this "whose rights are more important agenda" you are in fact playing patriachy's game. I believe if you attack one persons you are also attacking mine and I believe we acheive more by standing with other minorities than we ever do on our own.

Doodledog as I don't understand what you term "safe spaces" I'm a bit confused. I thought those were specifically women's groups, rape support networks, refuges and other organisations which risk assess and filter entrance.
Are you now including swimming pools and other public spaces? Because I think it might be. a bit much expecting staff to monitor and implement any policies or even laws about access to them.

Pressed too soon. Trisher, no one has tried to misrepresent you on here-believing that could lead to an irrational fear (phobia) of posting, which obviously hasn’t happened.

Grannygranby I really appreciated your post, especially the second paragraph.

In relation to the swimming pool subject:
My local gym has cubicles for showers, though there are communal ones, usually used by groups of children after swimming classes. In the communal changing rooms, women do strip off partially or fully to change, usually facing the lockers and often using a towel to be a bit more discreet and there are a small number of cubicles.
Trisher says, “Transpeople must use the facilities of the gender they consider themselves”
If they are discreet and have no wish to flaunt their body parts or cause distress to women or girls, then no one would either know or care.
**If they knowingly do something which women find distressing or make advances to the women changing there then they should not be allowed to use the female facilities.
To avoid being accused of misrepresenting you, I’ll simply ask,
Do you believe that women should be safe from transwomen who behave in that way?
I’m not asking, “Do you think it is possible to police these spaces?
Just, “Do you think believe women should be safe from transwomen who behave in the way mentioned at ** above?”

Are you deliberately misunderstanding us when we say that unless we are in ‘safe spaces’ it doesn’t matter?

I have asked repeatedly if you take us at our word in this but you repeatedly ignore the question.

So grannygranby the next time I'm singing in a pop up choir for IWD and the person next to me looks a bit masculine (I have a deep voice and I'm what one choir leader used to refer to as a "tenor lady," it's a joke when you say it) what do you recommend I do? Challenge her? My friend is 6ft tall, weighs 15stone and is quite muscular and strong.Will she have to be regularly checked? I'm not diverting by the way I'm simply asking that reality be part of the discussion and any solution. The person standing next to me may be a transwoman or a ciswoman I really don't know and I don't particularly care.

Wow! I thoug

I’ll say it again. I have looked into this law of ‘living as a woman for two years’ It does not give permission to access sex segregated spaces. It only asks that your gender has been changed on passport, bank account and by other identifying forms like driving licence. The main concern of the authorities is duplicitous identity and money laundering etc. it gives no other rights. Which may be applied for for gender recognition.
I see first hand how trisher diverts and trivialises argument.
There will be no agreement but at least there is some discussion. For that I am glad. Let’s hope women won’t shut up. I call adult females ‘women’ no more, no less. I believe, and know, that woman is a sex class. Males who wish to transition to females call themselves women because they believe there is a valid gender identity which is based on stereotypes. They would like us to call ourselves something else, like cis-women. No chance. We want them to be called trans-women but their call to arms is ‘trans women are women get over it’ So that won’t happen. It is a semantic battle with very real consequences for women. Unfortunately many women don’t believe it is happening because of the cancelling and media blackout but rules and laws are being changed in their name.
The name of this game is: ‘men are women if they say so’ and that is such crap.
Simon Edge has just published a brilliant satire ‘the end of the world is flat’ on the tactics and lunacy of the movement and what drives it. ‘Animal farm for our time.. with jokes’ you can get it on kindle now.

But the law says they must live as a woman for two years and produce evidence of that in order to get a GRC. Surgery isn't an option for some and some are just on a waiting list. So because selfID was blocked trans people must use the facilities of the gender they consider themselves they have no other option.
No one is eroding my rights. No one is silencing me. (Although there have been many attempts to misrepresent and castigate me on this thread).
As for your swimming dilemma Doodledog my local pool bans anyone from removing their swimming costume in the ladies communal showers. So that would solve that one.

Doodledog speaks very eloquently for many of us.

Much the best idea I’ve seen on here, Doodledog.

In wanting to be fair to trans people there is a danger of eroding the hard won rights of women. Perhaps there should be additional spaces made available which could be used by all genders but also keeping female (and male) only spaces.

Once a person has undergone the necessary surgery they would be free to use the facilities of that gender

Doodledog You keep coming up with such sensible suggestions.

Why can't we keep the language so that 'woman' and 'female' mean what they have always meant, and use transwoman/transman when that's what we mean?

That way there would be a lot less concern about women being subsumed into a sub-class of 'male' and it would mean that laws could target what they are supposed to much more specifically. In other words, turn the clock back a few years to before Stonewall spun out of control.

One wonders how female guards can be provided for these hotels to keep these women safe, if we can’t even define what a women is.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-58089029

Pammie1 at the risk of being criticised for saying so, good post and valid point.

I find this thread really depressing. The human race is turning itself inside out and I think I’m just too old to cope. I’m all for freedom of speech and expression but to me it will never be right for an intact man to use single sex spaces intended for women, no matter what his/her stage of transitioning. It’s simply too open to abuse and too much of a threat to women.

Not obsessed trisher, any more than you appear to be and I haven’t refuted any of your points, merely said that they should all be addressed at the same time, not listed one after the other. Since you mention women driven to suicide in sport, I’d add that to the list of important issues. I thought you’d agree with that as it means all of the issues you refer to would not have to wait until the issue of men/transwomen has been resolved -and they haven’t managed it since the first half of the last century.
Which statements?
Oh no!
I’ll never find out because you refuse to debate with me. ?
I don’t suppose I’ll ever find where I’ve said that I’m happy for women in sport to be driven to suicide, but since you ask, I’m one of the people on here who doesn’t have a problem giving a yes or no answer and I’m happy to give a straightforward answer.

No I’m not happy for women in sport to be driven to suicide either by their coaches or by other competitors or by levels of stress caused by competition.