Woman

Absolutely! Well said, Mollygo!

Trisher you evidently think you are only ‘tuly’ transgender with surgery. This is a new step even for you. I know you put it in what purports you be a post by me, but I didn’t say that and I don’t believe that.
This whole string of your posts misses the vital issue which you ignore when someone posts it and you try to divert the thread along yet another sidetrack.
The issue is not whether surgery is essential for transition, or whether there are ‘doctors somewhere who would perform it’.
The issue is whether transwomen's rights should take precedence over the rights of natal women, even when those rights put natal women in danger of physical or mental harm.
You’ve already agreed that the erosion of women’s rights regarding employment is a real threat caused by the patriarchy using existing legislation to make women’s lives more difficult.
The same patriarchy is trying to erode natal women’s rights to be safe.
People can call themselves what they want and dress how they want. Transwomen who do not use their trans ID to endanger natal women, girls and children or create situations where they can use the fact that they are really men to the detriment of natal women, will pass unremarked as many of them already do.
Transwomen who do use their trans ID to endanger natal women, girls and children or create situations where they can use the fact that they are really men do more harm to the trans community than anyone else. Currently their right to commit those actions are endorsed by the patriarchy.

I haven't said that things are awful. I have repeatedly said that whereas I have no concerns with people living their best life in whatever way they like, I object when single sex spaces are being used by untranistioned transwomen. That has always been my position on the subject and it hasn't changed.

I have explained why - because single sex spaces exist to protect vulnerable women and those who for religious, cultural or MH reasons do not want to share intimate spaces with men, and because I do not think that men's rights should trump those of women.

Apparently this is the sort of thing that Nazis said, it is what people said about homosexuality, I am playing the victim and so on (as listed in a previous post). If you didn't mean your comments about Nazis and homophobes to be taken to apply to those who believe that women should be able to us single sex spaces as they were intended, then why bring it up? Was it just a random observation on a thread about trans rights?

I am not twisting things. I just keep it pointing out when you do it, and when you try to divert the conversation to an argument about something else. I'm not sure whether you do it on purpose or if it is just so ingrained that you do it automatically.

I really CBA to keep scrolling back to previous pages to find examples to quote again - you will just ignore them anyway.

This

Doodledog you have claimed that I accused someone of being racist and discriminating against disabled people. I didn't I simply said the same language she used about transwomen had been used against those people.
So if that isn't twisting things I don't know what is.
You haven't yet explained what you want, or how things will be implemented.
You apparently think things are awful but don't want to do anything except keep posting how awful they are.
*Gagajo's right I've tried to debate reasonably and patiently. But you don't really want to discuss anything .

Sometimes I wonder if peope know what they post.
I am not talking about those who are truly transgender and have chosen to have surgery.
I have never claimed that surgery is essential to transition.
Apparently you are only tuly transgender with surgery though

Trisher, no they won’t. Those transwomen who mean harm will refuse surgery for obvious reasons.
Those who mean no harm will continue to either have surgery or not just as they do now.
You have just raised another diversion. I thought you’d run out.
I have never claimed that surgery is essential to transition.

Doodledog

*I do wish some people would take this for what it is, a discussion on-line which is more interesting if points are raised and discussed., tackle the questions raised and stop twisting what has been said*

Oh, the irony!

???

I do wish some people would take this for what it is, a discussion on-line which is more interesting if points are raised and discussed., tackle the questions raised and stop twisting what has been said

Oh, the irony!

German shepherd mum, I think many people feel as you do but frightened to say it for fear of being verbally abused by the
people that do it. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but soon jumped on by the few. The boundaries are being stretched all the time and it’s not a good thing.
Soon people will not be able to give an honest opinion.

I don't claim anyone's rights gain precedence over anyone else. I don't have a hierarchy of rights. I think everyone should have them.
I don't want women harmed in anyway but I have yet to see any evidence that they are threatened by transwomen. Might there be a few individuals who will cause damage? well of course there will, will some of these be trans individuals?-yes a few. But just as we don't label all men as paedophiles because a few are we don't label all transwomen, if they have undergone surgery or not. So by all means continue a battle against violence but stop linking it to trans issues and accept it is a few individuals.
Mollygo The reason no one has died is because transwomen can currently use women's facilities even if they haven't had surgery. If it's the law that surgery must happen I have no doubt there will be doctors somewhere who would perform the operation and people who would risk it.
I do wish some people would take this for what it is, a discussion on-line which is more interesting if points are raised and discussed., tackle the questions raised and stop twisting what has been said

You're a far, far better person than me trisher. Tons more patience too.

I looked up cases of transgender people refusing surgery because of any of the above conditions.
There were examples of personal preference, and examples of indecision about whether they actually wanted the change to be permanent.
I could find no examples of people dying when they went ahead with transition surgery against medical advice.
This is possibly because to operate on someone unsuitable for surgery, just because they want the operation, would be to knowingly cause harm. It’s not part of the Hippocratic Oath, but I haven’t met a medical practitioner yet who would agree to knowingly cause harm.
So, you’ve attempted yet another diversion.
It seems you actually claim that the rights of transwomen take precedence over the rights of natal women. That’s not a good position, especially if the claimant appears to be a woman.
But if someone holds to that belief, even in circumstances where taking such a stance allows women to be harmed, physically or mentally or simply placed in danger, is incomprehensible.

Lets go back to biology, Biological men use the gents but can dress, act and do what they want, biological women us ethe ladies and ditto.

Gender is an entirely social construct. Abolish it.

The same conditions that cause complications in all surgery requiring anaesthetic Mollygo meaning that usually only essential and not elective surgery is done.
Diabetes or kidney disease.
Family history of malignant hyperthermia (anesthesia allergy).
Heart disease, high blood pressure (hypertension) or strokes.
Lung disease, such as asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD).
Obesity (high body mass index or BMI).
Seizures or neurological disorders.
Sleep apnea.
Smoking.

It is indeed yet another diversionary tactic, along with:
'why aren't you organising?',

'you are doing what Nazis did',

'you are playing a victim'

'you are racist and against disabled people',

'you should be campaigning for XYZ instead'

'why weren't you so bothered about Myra Hindley's gay affair that happened in 1974?' and so on.

Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender - it happens every time.

Do clarify trisher. Which medical conditions would prevent a transwoman from having surgery?
I know this is another sidetrack but I’m genuinely interested.

Some transgender women are unable to have surgery because of medical conditions. It seems they are now to be differentiated against because of that. So there will be classes of transwomen. Quite how this is going to be legislated for isn't clear. Will there be inspections? If so who is going to do them? What if a transwoman ignores her medical conditions and undergoes surgery anyway but dies during the procedure. Is that OK ?

GG13 and GSM I agree. I’m only sorry that posting a really funny, but impolite image I saw on FB the other day would get me banned!

Too right GG13.

Call yourself what you like but if you have a penis and testicles you are a man, and therefore have no rights to be in women only places.

I think men 'identifying as women' is the ultimate act of patriarchy and control. We are nothing, any man can be a woman if he wants to. I am not being a victim I am objecting to being reducedd to something like a change of dress.

I am not talking about those who are truly transgender and have chosen to have surgery.

the patriachy steadily uses existing legislation to make women's lives more difficult

Yes! And also deliberately misinterprets it to deny women what should be theirs. Caitlin Jenner as woman of the year in Vogue although they had only been a woman for the blink of an eye. Laurel Hubbard denying born-women a place at the Olympics. Pip Bunce taking a space on a list of Britain’s top 100 female executives compiled for the Champions of Women in Business awards when the next day Mx Bunce might choose to be a man.

I was shocked at the manner in which the winning female Olympian weight lifters were treated at the post contest interview. They were asked about Laurel Hubbard. Why? What relevance did that have to their win? They were majestic in their response by refusing to comment. mobile.twitter.com/artofhunger75/status/1422592460438519809?s=21&fbclid=IwAR32hOPPwmiFVfZZD1xDU9tI8PpQ0PjR7nwrW7NmPIs4icZgfEpPRkvbNys

Hurray! One down, two to go. Thank you trisher!
Agreement in the erosion of women’s rights regarding employment caused by the patriarchy! The one place where it doesn’t matter whether or not the transwoman is acting with physically harmful intent, but it’s a start.
The same patriarchy that is overruling women’s rights to safety and women’s rights to success by giving precedence to the rights of transwomen some of whom do have harmful intent.
I’ll tell my DD that she was wrong to have been distracted by the trans threat when she was hospitalised with a transwoman who quite definitely had harmful intent towards the women on the ward. She, and the other patently frightened women were still obliged to share the same facilities or be put into isolation themselves (a threat used but impossible to fulfil because they didn’t have sufficient spaces) because moving him would have left the staff open to allegations of transphobia, i.e. trans rights took precedence.
But hey, according to you, they were only ‘playing the victim’ and there wasn’t an aggressor and they, in their already fragile mental state should have taken responsibility for their own desires and long term actions.

I don't think all women are victims. I don't think transwomen are threatening women's spaces. I don't think women need to act except against the very real threats to their employment and earning capacity.
Someone can perceive themselves a victim or act as a victim-it's called victim playing. There doesn't needto be an aggressor. But it seems to me this is the role you choose for women to play. To break the hold of that negative complex, and to escape the passivity of victimhood, requires taking responsibility for one's own desires and long-term actions. Which is what I am asking you to do and which you constantly object to.
So what do you expect to happen if women don't act?
I don't see any major change in the future. Apart from women losing more and more employment rights as the patriachy steadily uses existing legislation to make women's lives more difficult whilst you are distracted by the trans threat.