Woman

No you haven’t GJ.

A lot of alcohol had been consumed, so I’d have thought toilets anywhere including hotels could have been an issue. There were many female-presenting men in town all weekend and I didn’t notice any of them being hassled anywhere so it’s hard to see what transwomen need protection from.

Actually, MG, I've addressed it twice.

I am glad you can cope with interacting with both sexes gagajo, as can I, I am not sure what that has to do with single sex spaces.

Interestingly, GJ still hasn’t answered my question.

What is this obsession with looking at people's genitalia?

In answer to the 'what should we do' questions - we can do what we did for years, which is make it an offence for a man to be in a single sex female space. If the man is 'presenting as' a woman, and is not making a nuisance of himself there will be no consequences, but if, like the transwoman in the communal female changing room at a friend of mine's local baths (where he caused consternation amongst the mums and toddlers), he is clearly and obviously male, then he could be charged with indecency, or threatening behaviour or 'something' - add a separate offence if necessary and/or delete as appropriate.

This transwoman could have changed in a cubicle, or attended a mixed session, but chose to be there, in a state of undress, on a daytime session for mothers and toddlers.

Sue, I have been in the toilets at gay venues. Women used mens (queues are shorter). Men used womens (mirrors are better). Shock, horror. Nobody cared.

I don't see how not knowing someone's sex would complicate your life, UNLESS you were planning on having sex with them Galaxy. I can cope with interacting with men, women and those of them who are somewhere inbetween.

I dont need to see genitals to know peoples biological sex. It must make life extraordinarily difficult if you do.

SueDonim I don't suppose most people are at risk in hotel toilets. Unfortunately you can't say the same for all of them.

No you don't you know the gender they present as. You have (I assume) never seen the evidence to prove their sex. You assume it because they present in a certain way.

We stayed in a hotel last week where there were many male-bodied people wearing female attire. I had a first class view of the lavatory entrances from the restaurant table. ? All of the female-presenting people used the gents toilets, not one went into the ladies. No one coming out of the gents seemed to come to any harm, I didn’t hear any fights or any trouble.

I have to say, when I went into the ladies loos, I would not have wanted to explain to a small child the various items that were littering the floor. ?

I know Julian Clarys sex, I know Eddie Izzards sex, etc etc.

I have never needed to look at anyones genitalia to know their sex. What on earth are you doing?

And what will we do about those that don't fit the nice, neat XX / XY categories? Look at their genitalia?

Just abolish gender, then all this argument goes away, anyone can be anything they like. Any separate facilities should be based on biology
And just how will you discover someone's biology? Will we all carry sex identity cards?.

Just abolish gender, then all this argument goes away, anyone can be anything they like. Any separate facilities should be based on biology.

I suspect that if men wanted to dress in what is considered female clothing and live their definition of a female life they could and no one would take any notice many of these problems would fade away, biology is fixed and we have no need for gender.

Its unlike you to be rude Trisher so I will ignore that. Using the phrase dress like a woman, assuming that clothes etc are indicative of sex, all reinforce gender roles. It is very easy to identify sex Trisher its how we know julian clary is a man, its how we know Boy George is a man, despite them presenting in a gender non conforming way.
I dobt see trans people as a threat Gagajo. I think that men are of a higher risk in terms of committing certain crimes than women. I dont think men with ginger hair are a risk to women in particular, I think they shouldn't be in a woman only space though.

I agree SD. We don't yet though.

If we lived in a gender-neutral society, surely there wouldn’t be any transpeople at all. And why can’t transmen having a baby be called pregnant transmen? Why the need for transpeople?

I didn't say you were a bigot Galaxy. I don't know you.

I took my place on this topic years before transphobia became a widespread thing, so I came to my own decisions about the topic without the political noise in my head. To be honest, my first experiences were an epiphany for me. Sex/gender is such bullsh**t.

Possibly, I stand back from things too much. I see sex/gender as a continuum and I see the trans debate in much the way I saw the battle for gay & lesbian equality. I think feminism / gay rights / trans rights are all part of the same process and I genuinely am A) confused and B) very sad that some feminists have sheared off to see trans people as a threat. Because with a fair amount of experience in this area, I have yet to meet a trans person who I've seen as a threat. They have all just been people trying to live a life that is authentic to them.

Galaxy

Trisher who is forcing people to conform to gender roles. Dress how you like, present how you like, etc etc by saying those gender roles are associated with a particular sex you are reinforcing those gender roles.

Honestly you really do post some tosh. I'm not doing anything. I'm quite happy for anyone to wear anything and use any facilities they choose. I'm not the one imagining transwomen are somehow going to access those facilities and assault women because one or two cases have been widely publicised. But I will point this out. In the gender neutral society you are imagining no one could identify the sex of anyone else so all facilities would have to be available to everyone. So yes let's have a gender neutral society then perhaps transpeople could live in peace.

But the personal is political. Its personal to women in prison who have been raped and are having to share single sex facilities with men. Its personal to those in refuges, its personal to those competing in sport. Its personal to the woman who was made to refer to her assailant as a woman. And so on.
Your history sounds a little similar to mine Gagajo, it's honestly highly unlikely that I have suddenly become a bigot.

if lesbians can choose not to include men as women in their relationships then any women, straight, bisexual etc can choose not to include men in the category of women

Galaxy, these are TWO entirely different issues.

One, is about who an individual has a relationship with. Personal.

The other is a unilateral decision about what makes the category of women. Social/political.

GJ as my post of 17.54 some Lesbians have been criticised and accused of transphobia because they refused to accept a relationship with a transwoman came from a meeting with Lesbians seeking support against being attacked because of their choice.
If you haven’t come up against this either because you wouldn’t find such a relationship unacceptable or because even as a sometime lesbian, you haven’t been treated to the attacks you are lucky.
Do you think it acceptable-however big or small your clitoris, that as a lesbian you must accept a relationship with a transwoman OR be labelled transphobic, a bigot or TERF.

Trisher who is forcing people to conform to gender roles. Dress how you like, present how you like, etc etc by saying those gender roles are associated with a particular sex you are reinforcing those gender roles.