Woman

But I don't "identify" as a woman, I just am one. I know I'm a woman because of my biology. I have no idea what other women feel like because I can't enter their heads and emotions, I just know how I feel. It may be my feelings are more often found in men, but how would I know? I despise the use of the word cis, it demands people collude with a belief system, which would not be demanded if it was a traditional religious belief.

GagaJo I imagine most surgery of the kind you mention in your last post is carried out privately. Not all, but the vast majority. Such surgery should of course be regulated but hardly needs to be policed. Diversion again.

Because GRS surgery is extremely complex and frequently doesn't give a good result. Frequently not a functioning result.

So if someone is UNABLE to get surgery, you want to deny them? Uh huh.

GagaJo my question was why a man wishing to be a woman would choose not to have surgery. You have said not everyone wants surgery. Why would that be? If you want to be a woman why would you want to keep your male tackle? If a man wants access to a space reserved for women then as has already been said, that should not be permitted with intact male genitalia. But I have no desire to set that hare running again.

It's very ironic. Because having huge fake silicone implants put in ISN'T policed. Neither is labia surgery. Because they are all reinforcing dominant feminine (unrealistic) ideals. But try to change gender and the gates of surgery clang closed.

Doodledog, 'living as' is a requirement of the GRS route. It is a hoop they have to jump through.

Isn’t this why the term ciswomen is used? It means a person who is born a woman and identifies as a woman.

I would still like a response to my post, though. Or were the questions just posed to waste more of my time answering the same things over and over?

I don’t think I know a single person who is what is called ‘typically feminine’ or ‘typically masculine’. Does that mean that we are all ‘non-binary’?

I think we probably are, and this is why I lose patience with the ‘live as/present as’ a woman thing.

I appreciate that this is not the same as feeling misgendered, but I do wonder how many people end up on roads that are different to get off because of a misplaced expectation that all men, or all women somehow think, act or feel the same.

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo a great many posts on this thread, including mine for which I have been pilloried by you and by trisher, refer to men who are not trans women but men who are dressed as women. You now appear to accept that such men exist. This thread has never been about fully transitioned trans women. I have asked why a man who genuinely wishes to be a woman would choose not to have surgery to remove his male genitalia but received no reply. I ask the question again.

Are you aware that the wait for an INITIAL appointment at a gender reassignment clinic is upwards of 4 years in the UK? Not for surgery. For the first appointment. Obviously, there are many requirements after that, psychologists appointments, hormone therapy, the requirement to 'live in' the new gender. Plus of course, the surgery waiting list.

Even for someone desperate for the surgery, the wait is many years.

But of course, not everyone wants the surgery. They may stop at the hormone treatment. And we are not to dictate what people do with their bodies. My vagina does not make me a woman. It makes me biologically female, but being a woman is a cultural, social, historical, psychological thing. I'm not particularly feminine. In another culture, maybe I wouldn't be a woman, maybe I'd decide I was two-spirit.

GagaJo at 13:53 yesterday I took the time to respond to a hectoring post from you that demanded answers to questions about what I ‘want’.

You have not afforded me the courtesy of a reply. If you could get around to doing so while you’re here, that would be great, thanks.

GagaJo a great many posts on this thread, including mine for which I have been pilloried by you and by trisher, refer to men who are not trans women but men who are dressed as women. You now appear to accept that such men exist. This thread has never been about fully transitioned trans women. I have asked why a man who genuinely wishes to be a woman would choose not to have surgery to remove his male genitalia but received no reply. I ask the question again.

Argh!
*there, not their
*abusive, not abuse

Those transwomen who strut into pools or changing rooms in their pants only are making it quite obvious that they are still men, so why bother claiming to be a woman.

How many of them have their been? Are you sure they are transwomen OR are they actually just cis men trying to abuse women? Because if they are the latter, trans people aren't the issue, it's just the regular old abuse men that it's always been.

And it's obvious why trisher was talking about race in relation to body shapes. It's because a poster up thread said transwomen could be identified at times because male bodies have narrower hips than women. Black women, depending on their origin ethnicity often have narrower hips. Therefore saying women have wider hips than men is a white centric statement and is exclusionary.

Why do we think women’s bodies naked in front of children are OK? Because they’re in the women’s changing rooms.
My DGC gets changed with his dad in the men’s changing rooms. It’s quite possible that the men let it all hang out and the boys don’t care. I don’t use men’s changing rooms so I don’t know.
If I went in there as a transman I’d use a cubicle. (Possibly for my own safety, but I’m not, so I’ll never know.) I expect the same courtesy from an unaltered transwoman. Those transwomen who strut into pools or changing rooms in their pants only are making it quite obvious that they are still men, so why bother claiming to be a woman.
You must go to some very strange pools if you think women stand round flashing their body parts. Women tend to turn their backs as they change or use cubicles.
Why did you suddenly start talking about race in terms of body shapes?

"I asked how you knew the person was a transwomen" Well I think if they were dressed as a woman and were displaying male genitalia in a changing room it would be a big clue

why do we think female bodies naked in front of children are OK but male bodies aren't?
Probably because in itself a female body is not going to be used as a weapon? A naked woman is no more of a threat than a clothed one, whereas a naked man can be.

Before you point out that women have been charged with sexual crimes against children, these are very rare, and are different in nature from those of men - put bluntly, a woman cannot rape in the way that a man can.

Also, naked women and children are vulnerable because of their nakedness, for what boils down to similar reasons.

Mollygo I cut and pasted that from a link I posted after M0nica had posted about runner Caster Semenya banned for her high testosterone level(natural). I thought few people would read it (Thank you Doodledog) so I cut and pasted part of it.
I think it is interesting.
I think the basic concepts of female bodies is probably largely based on white women, just as most medical concepts are based on white male bodies. I think it is something which needs addressing.
I didn't use "cis" the writer of the article did, because out in the real world (distinct from GN) people are using it.
One of the arguments in sport about transwomen is that their narrow hips give them an advantage. I thought the fact that African women have naturally narrow hips is something to think about and the way it was used in the past was shocking.

Thank goodness we are behind the times here and have private changing rooms rather than communal ones. If I saw someone with their dick hanging out I would report them. A flasher is a flasher.

Oldwoman70 I think I have, I asked how you knew the person was a transwomen. But it does raise the same question why do we think female bodies naked in front of children are OK but male bodies aren't? Lots of answers to that of course but thinking about it is good as it means we can challenge preconceptions and traditional gender roles.

"As I have said previously, when in a communal dressing room most women are discreet and stand with their back to the room if a transwoman openly displays their male genitals in that situation one has to wonder why they choose to do that. Once again I ask you - do you not consider women and children should be protected from that?"

Another question trisher hasn't answered

Why are we talking about negroid hips?
Who has posted anything about this and what relevance does it have to people wanting to change gender?

Why are you using cis? Sorry I know why so I shouldn’t have asked.

Which is not to say that the article isn't basically true. I was snappy there and shouldn't have been. I apologise.

It's just that, much as I know you are backing up your argument against what you think people have said, nobody has said it, and it is yet another diversion into an area that was never in dispute.

I read it, Miss!

A lot of it was about the 15th century (or was it the 16th?) and I couldn't find any sources, or references that verified the science - it is an opinion piece on a page about American sport, as far as I could tell.

In any case, I don't think anyone is saying that you can tell a transperson by looking, unless of course they are in a wet swimsuit, in which case it is blindingly obvious, even to a 3 year old.

No trisher and you’re never likely to because if I posted them, you’d say I had said something different, produce a diversion or even an analogy.
I’ve already said what I think about transwomen in changing rooms so I don’t need to repeat it.
‘Much of it is inaccurate and biased’ but you don’t feel that applies to you obviously.
With regard to feminism, I have already posted that you are allowed to have your view of what feminism is but it isn’t the only view nor necessarily the ‘correct view’ if such a thing exists. You asked me what I thought feminism means. I watched your responses to others ideas and decided it wasn’t worth my time.
Earlier on this thread I was happy to post my views, concerns and opinions on the subject. I found your constant attempts to divert the topic . . . diverting.
Now I mostly post reiterating what I have said, which is as true now as it was when I first said it.
If I read back through this thread, where would I find evidence that you are, “quite willing to adjust your views if anyone wants to post anything’.