Woman

I posted a link before, I doubt if any of you have read it. So here is a section from it. It should at the very least make you think about your preconceptions.

World Athletics remains committed to a centuries-old, white supremacist notion that defines “womanhood” in terms of the white, cisgendered female body, rendering everyone else, especially women of African descent, socially unacceptable abberations.

World Athletics describes its mission as fostering “athletic excellence” and enhancing sport to “offer new and exciting prospects for athletes.” Yet it has historically done so by enabling vile attitudes towards black women and the bodies they inhabit.

In 1897, just 15 years before World Athletics was founded, British missionary Sir Albert Cook, a medical doctor by training, wrote broadly and unabashedly about his ethically dubious biopsies of women in present-day Uganda, remarking:

“Who has not been struck by the extraordinary narrowness of the Negroid hip? Viewed behind in the erect position at the level of hips the female Negroid body is narrow and round as compared with the “broad beam” of the average European woman, and when the dried pelvises of each are placed alongside each other the explanation is obvious, the Muganda’s bone looks like that of a child in size and in the fineness of its structure.... The negroid races have a shape of pelvis which is intermediate between the protomorphean races and those of the higher civilised types.... The brim, as in the apes, is long­oval in shape.”
It is difficult to overemphasize how critical Cook’s now-disproven studies were in the development of racialized ideas around femaleness and womanhood, and ultimately the dehumanization of black women’s bodies. He would become a two-time president of the British Medical Association and was knighted by way of King George V after his studies of African women’s anatomy became popular. Cook exemplified to the colonizing world the “knowledge” that could be seized upon through engagement with the African “other.”

I think it is shocking.

Doodledog thinks it is OK if they keep their clothes on.

Isn't this your own view? If I could be arsed to trawl through 22 pages again I'm sure that I would find you saying so - if memory serves it was in the post where you said that people don't like being naked in front of one another, and that your local pool has a no-nudity policy in communal areas. Why are you presenting this view as being solely mine if not to be petty?

Where in GN rules is it strictly forbidden to question people's feminism? If anything you are the one who has done that from the start of this thread, using your usual dubious logic to set yourself up as the one who cares because of your self-declared 'good works' and 'lifelong devotion to the cause'.

You are right that there will be no 'winner' - it was never a contest. It is a difference of opinion, and whatever you may think it is you (and GagaJo) who have avoided answering questions, even when they were deliberately phrased so that all you had to do was say Yes or No. Every time you are asked a question, Gaga either flounces, saying she can't be bothered to talk to us or makes entirely unfounded accusations then ignores the responses that show the flaws in her argument. You ignore most of the salient points in all of our posts and ask us to repeat the same things again and again. It's exhausting.

In case I had misremembered, I have spent the last hour or so reading through the whole turgid thing, and believe me, the accusations ('bad feminism', racism, sexism, lying, Nazi sympathy etc) are coming from you, as is the avoidance of giving answers to questions. I have neither the will nor strength to do a proper content analysis, but if anyone could be bothered to do one I am sure that the stats would back me up.

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo you have absolutely no idea do you? You are on this thread as trisher’s self-appointed cheerleader to be as offensive as possible, once again diverting

As I said before, I'm no ones cheerleader. I doubt trisher would appreciate me cheering for her even if I were so inclined. I'm not as rational, logical or polite as her.

I appreciate you may find me offensive. Which is of course, how I find the vast majority of this thread. Full of bigotry towards a tiny group of people who just want to be treated as if they are human. Tarring them with the faults of cis men, who are the group with by far the highest rate of violence towards any women, cis or trans. Hiding behind fear, in an attempt to dictate how other people should behave.

IF I had the time, I would particiapate more, but as it is, real life takes precedence. But it is however an open forum. So unless you take the discussion to a private space (WHY aren't you doing that anyway? It's what you all claim you desperately need) you will have interlopers.

Mollygoif I really wanted this thread to go I could on numerous occasions have reported any of the posts which told me to "stop digging" called me "phobic" questoned my feminism or any of the other personal insults which are strictly against GN rules. I haven't. People may think they are telling the truth, but much of it is inaccurate and biased.. Perhaps if you wish to say something or explain any of the things which have been posted that I have argued against, a discussion could result.
I have always used the statements made on this thread to support my perception. of what has been said. I'm quite willing to adjust my views if anyone wants to post anything.
I now understand that whereas M0nica doesn't think any transwoman should be allowed in any woman's facility, like loos and changing rooms, unless they are gender reassigned Doodledog thinks it is OK if they keep their clothes on.
I still don't know your views on this.

trisher I know you like to attribute thoughts that haven’t actually been stated to other posters so I’ll afford you the same politesse.
So trisher, I think you hope the thread will disappear because you cannot either accept that someone else is telling the truth or accept that you may be wrong. Disappearance of the thread would enable you to congratulate yourself and since you think others would be ‘losing’ no doubt you would see yourself as a winner.
Sadly because the concerns I’ve consistently raised whilst ‘not contributing’ look like they will go unchallenged by some myopic people, and unsolved, I feel there is no winner in this situation.

Doodledog anyone can post anything they like as far as I'm concerned however when they post abouttranswomen not accessing certain places because they have not had surgery, post about black athletes having male characteristics and believe they can identify transwomen just by looking I really despair.
And if M0nica is so sure of herself all she has to do is explain how the things she posts will work and how the things I post misrepresent her. Which she won't because I haven't I've used the things she posted and nothing else.

I hope the thread doesn't go, but honestly, trisher, it's really not a case of Monica 'losing', you are getting increasingly unhinged.

You are taking no notice of what we post, and instead replying to what you think we've said, and are accusing people of saying things they have not said, as has GagaJo, whose treatment of GSM has been disgraceful.

I have said the same thing so many times, but you still keep asking for further explanations, accusing me of lying, of saying things I have never so much as thought - in fact things I have explicitly denied, and you do the same to others.

I appreciate that this is a subject close to your heart, and I believe that you honestly think that your opinions are based on principles that I probably share. I think that you are misguided, however, and whether you like it or not, I do have a right to that opinion.

I just wish that you would afford others the right to post in disagreement with your and be read and responded to honestly. It is not a game that will be won or lost, but when people see their posts ignored, their questions unanswered and their views insulted they are going to get annoyed - we can only take so much.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

No, trisher. We were not just discussing toilets etc. This is and always has been a wider-ranging discussion than that. I was simply showing your attempt to discredit M0nica for what it was.

But anyway - IMO, it should be an offence for someone (whatever they believe themselves to be) to be naked or 'exposed' in a space that is reserved for the opposite sex. I would not designate cubicles in shops or traditional women's toilets (with separate cubicles) as reserved spaces, but the areas outside of them (eg the part of the 'Ladies' where the sinks and hand driers are, and the bit of shop changing rooms where people leave the cubicles to check the longer distance mirrors) should be for clothed people only, as should communal areas of swimming pool changing rooms.

In that way, transwomen could do as they usually do, and discreetly use facilities without comment, but it would not be ok for a man to insist on being in a state of undress anywhere that is designated 'female only'.

Refuges are a much more difficult area, and that is largely a result of the fact that they are massively underfunded and there is little chance that there could ever be separate facilities for transpeople in them; but they are places where women are incredibly vulnerable, so I think that, sad as it is, if a choice has to be made to exclude anyone, it should be women (as defined by sex) who take priority. With luck (although we shouldn't have to rely on luck) fundraising and campaigning will eventually make it possible for anyone who needs a place to have one.

Also, Molly has contributed to this discussion all along, and is no more 'interjecting' than anyone else, so that comment to her was unjustified and extremely rude.

Mollygo perhaps yu could either state your own beliefs or stop trying to interject into a discussion you haven't so far posted anything about.

Doodledog If anyone is diverting discussions it is you.We were I believe discussing toilets and changing rooms in shops and pools. Not rappe centres, women's refuges or any other facility which routinely risk assess.
So could you explain to me how those facilities are to be denied to transwomen who have not fully transitioned, preferably without bringinginto the discussion protected places which are routinely risk assessed.

Thanks for the non answer. I didn’t expect one so that’s OK.
The problem is that your ignorance about what we actually post makes it difficult to engage.
Why would I want to challenge Dominique Jackson? Use of threatening behaviour in women’s safe spaces? Exhibiting male genitalia anywhere, especially in women’s spaces?
What has Dominique done which makes you suggest I would want to challenge anything.

trisher

Doodledog Honestly is it that difficult to understand transwomen are not men. They do not believe they are men. They do not want to be men. They do not want to live as men. They believe they are women. They will use women's facilities.
This is a load of tosh and so much squirming and avouidng issues it is unbelievable

Therefore, in your logic, Monica wants toilets and changing rooms in shops (sic) to check genitalia.

This is not what M0nica said. In fact, she went on to say that in most cases it would be obvious if someone were male, and in any case, most men would respect an instruction to stay away.

No, it is not a load of tosh. It is basic comprehension.

trisher, you are the one saying that checks are necessary and attributing that to M0nica, who said no such thing. I am neither squirming nor avoiding issues.

And yet again, as you seem to have misunderstood the countless other times I have said it, I have no problem with transwomen 'living as' women (whatever that means). What I take issue with is the chance that men (note, men, not transwomen ) will impersonate transwomen in order to nefariously impose themselves into women's spaces.

I do not think that women should have to give up the right to decide that in certain circumstances they want to be around other women (eg for rape counselling, in DV refuges, anywhere where they feel vulnerable or disinclined to be naked in front of men. If a transwoman is in a public loo, she will use a cubicle. If a transwoman is in a swimming pool, she can do the same, or keep on her costume until she is in private (and preferably wear something discreet, so that male genitals are not on display in the showers) and so on. There is no need for 'checkers'.

As you keep pointing out, the odds on a rogue male making a nuisance of himself in this way are slim. Your response to this is to say that women should take the risk that they will be the one to find him in their refuge, or rape counselling suite, or communal changing room. Mine is to say that it is better to prevent it from happening in the first place, and if that inconveniences some men, I would rather that than put women at risk.

I honestly think that most transwomen would say the same, as it is the fact that they are often conflated with the 'wax my balls' brigade that causes at least some (I would guess at most) of the prejudice against them.

It amuses me hugely by the way when I am accused of twisting things, while you all try to pretend you really aren't transphobic, post a load of inaccuracies, rely on impossibilities and apparently fail completely to understand the issue you are posting about.

If male genitals are obvious here is Dominique Jackson who plays Elektra Abundance in Pose. She was born in 1964/5 has lived most of her life as transgender and had her gender affirming surgery in 2015. Do you really think you would challenge her?

(Posted too early) … diverting to black people and also now to gays. You have no intention of trying to understand my fear of being in a supposedly safe place with an intact man trying (but failing) to pass as a woman. You ignore my mention of the link Rosie posted and my question as to why a man genuinely wishing to become a woman would choose not to have surgery - as with other questions put by others to you and your team mate.

Trisher you have once again alluded to something which I ‘seem to imagine’.
What is it? I have stated my concerns about the erosion of women’s rights, about women’s safety in hospitals and prisons. I have clarified that my concerns are not with transwomen per se, but with those transwomen who wish to use their identity to harm women or to induce fear or distress in women already suffering.
You mention a minuscule proportion- I’m just asking for clarification. Do you mean it’s OK that only a small number of women could suffer or that you think even one woman harmed by a transwoman in the wrong place is one too many?

I’ve clarified my concerns and my attitude so many times, so what is it I ‘seem to imagine’?

Doodledog Honestly is it that difficult to understand transwomen are not men. They do not believe they are men. They do not want to be men. They do not want to live as men. They believe they are women. They will use women's facilities.
This is a load of tosh and so much squirming and avouidng issues it is unbelievable

Therefore, in your logic, Monica wants toilets and changing rooms in shops (sic) to check genitalia.

This is not what M0nica said. In fact, she went on to say that in most cases it would be obvious if someone were male, and in any case, most men would respect an instruction to stay away.

GagaJo you have absolutely no idea do you? You are on this thread as trisher’s self-appointed cheerleader to be as offensive as possible, once again diverting

M0nica
another inaccuracy
think, a genetic problem that means they have very high testosterone and acquire many male characteristics, especially strength and speed, which means they can outperform all other female runners. There is a South African female runner sadly, in this unfortunate position, but this is a medical matter not a transgender issue.
There is no evidence that naturally occurring testosterone in any way influences performance. Artificial testosterone does, but these athletes do not take artificial testosterone.
Women come in all shapes and sizes. This post is not only sexist it's racist, black women athletes have some physical characteristics you apparently attribute to men.
Please read this www.sbnation.com/2020/4/20/21227661/caster-semenya-world-athletics-regulation-body-racism

trisher

M0nica if you don't have checks how do you propose to implement this
Gagjo I do not think that any adult person still with the genitals they were born with intact, should go into any space designated as meant for humans with different genitals to theirs. That is basic biology.

That includes toilets, changing rooms, whether in sports facilties or shops, Refuges of all kinds,

You really cannot tell what sort of genitals a transwomen has by looking at her.

So, if I follow your dubious logic here:

Monica has said that genitals should determine which areas people are allowed to access when those spaces are 'dedicated to the exclusive use of biological women by reason of their biological needs for privacy, protection, and vice versa.'

You decided that this could only work if someone checked.

Therefore, in your logic, Monica wants toilets and changing rooms in shops (sic) to check genitalia.

This is not what M0nica said. In fact, she went on to say that in most cases it would be obvious if someone were male, and in any case, most men would respect an instruction to stay away.

You are misquoting her.

GagaJo

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo I deeply resent your insulting post. I am not a bigot. Any fear, for whatever reason it is felt, is a fear. The link in Rosie’s post shows that such fears are not groundless.

I'm sure that there are white people who fear black people. Or straight people who fear gay people. It's still bigotry.

There are people who fear spiders. And people who are scared of clowns.

Neither of those things has anything to do with race, any more than GSM's fear does.

Your comments are deeply offensive, and if you had any humility you would see that.

M0nica if you don't have checks how do you propose to implement this
Gagjo I do not think that any adult person still with the genitals they were born with intact, should go into any space designated as meant for humans with different genitals to theirs. That is basic biology.

That includes toilets, changing rooms, whether in sports facilties or shops, Refuges of all kinds,

You really cannot tell what sort of genitals a transwomen has by looking at her.

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo I deeply resent your insulting post. I am not a bigot. Any fear, for whatever reason it is felt, is a fear. The link in Rosie’s post shows that such fears are not groundless.

I'm sure that there are white people who fear black people. Or straight people who fear gay people. It's still bigotry.