Woman

Germanshepherdsmum I refer you to my post to Mollygo And ask you would it be OK for people to say "Old people offend me I don't want to look at them."?

Mollygo I suggested pink triangles because none of you have yet suggested how anyone is going to identify transwomen who are using places like swimming pool changing areas and stop them entering. You all persist in insisting these can be designated safe spaces and I'm simply pointing out there isn't anyway of telling who is trans and who isn't.
I'm quite open to other ways if there are any.

I don't blame anyone for saying they notice appearances. I do object when they use that appearance to make judgemental decisions. And I'd do that about any judgement. I'm sure if someone posted how they hated to see old people because their skin is so wrinkly ,and that once they saw an old woman with a wrinkly eyes and blue eyeshadow, and it traumatised them, you would find it offensive. So why is it OK to say a man or a transwoman with make up does that?

I refer to the Nazis with reason. We currently have a right wing government desperate to find a minority to target and clamp down on. I'm hugely suspicious about why trans issues are suddenly being focussed on and genuinely worried about freedoms for my grandchildren.

trisher, there is a big difference between observation and judgment. You seem not to understand that difference, so to use your patronising word I will ‘explain’ that I have related what I have observed and related my feelings upon those observations, feelings which you kindly accept I am entitled to experience. However you then decide I am justifying those feelings (where did I do that?) by making comparisons with ‘some standard’ I have ‘acquired from somewhere’ and that I judge everyone by personal appearance. Once again you draw similarities with Nazi beliefs. You go on to emphasise your unfounded belief that I judge solely on appearance by suggesting quite ridiculously that I might be more accepting of a man professionally made up such as Ru Paul. You are the one leaping to judgment here. And by mocking my feelings, describing me as narrow minded and talking about ‘my world’ you show that you are only willing to accept anyone else’s views if those views conform to yours. You might say you’re a feminist but you’re anything but. A true feminist stands up for the rights of all natal women and doesn’t adopt an unjustified air of superiority towards those who hold different views to hers but who are nevertheless entirely supportive of the rights of natal women in all situations.

M0nica you'll be really pleased then that Mj Rodriguez who plays Blanca won an Emmy in 2021 for best Leading Actress in a Drama series for her performance in this series of Pose.

Excellent post @ 19.35 DoodleDog

I'm watching "Pose" two of the most beautiful transgender actresses I've ever seen

Once again Trisher you are speaking in a confusing away. Quoting the beauty of a couple of people as if that was what mattered and which you seem to think validates them.

If I was watching a film, what I would looking for in the actors would be the quality of the acting, not the quality of their looks. That would be their validation, not their looks or what gender they were

You also describe them as actresses, an archaic term, disliked by actors of all genders and little used these days, except in the gutter press when describing a notable person's clandestine lover.

“Most of my posts have been quite measured”, Self praise is no recommendation, but actually your sentence applies to most posters on here.
You say
“someone doesn’t . . . conform with some standard you have acquired from somewhere isn’t acceptable.” Seems to be how you view other people’s opinions.

“I haven’t accused anyone of Nazi sympathies” but you are the one who keeps using the word Nazi and suggesting things that you think about other posters e.g. suggesting we would like people to wear pink triangles.
Your making statements like that about people who have never expressed any such intent is worrying.

“Judging by personal appearance hasn’t been acceptable for years.”
You’re right about that, but everybody notices appearances, even you, e.g. your comment about your singing buddy. I was amazed that you knew her height, weight, muscularity and strength. Most of us only notice friends as taller or shorter than us. If you notice that much detail, you can’t blame anyone else for noticing that a ‘woman’ is displaying as a man.
Your pool obviously thinks there might be a problem as it has put up signs. Our pool has a screened off area for mothers and children to change after swimming because they need more space than is available in a small cubicle. Women not accompanied by children respect that. Let’s hope transwomen do the same.

As Doodledog and Oldwoman70 already mentioned, ‘a transwoman who goes into a changing room instead of a private cubicle is far more likely to be an exhibitionist’
Transwomen who use cubicles are more considerate of natal women and that’s good.

Women should stand up for themselves.
Somebody has already mentioned women traumatised by domestic violence, J K Rowling, Maya Forstatter and Suzanne Moore. When I listen to Baroness Jenkin expressing concern about the attacks she might be under for expressing an opinion about the rights of women, I wonder exactly how many women could face the threats and insults that would arise if they ‘stood up for themselves!’
Women shouldn’t have to ‘stand up’ for the fact that they are women against people who think they have more right to call themselves that and use their ‘woman ness’ to the detriment of natal women, and if they DO stand up, they should be able to do so in safety.

Actually A Handmaid's Tale (the original) is about men controlling women and using them for their reproductive capacity. The women married to the men in power were happy to use other women.
I'm watching "Pose" two of the most beautiful transgender actresses I've ever seen. Set in 1990s New work as AIDs devastated the gay community

Sorry - trisher not trasher?

No, but people can be taken in by things that aren't right - it happens all the time.

I'm not sure how the fact that many women supported the Nazis helps trasher's argument, though - rather the reverse, to be honest.

Is anyone still watching A Handmaid's Tale? It's fiction, of course, but it is about what happens when women stop being 'women' and instead are defined by others with nefarious motives, and it's terrifying.

Just because something is enthusisastically supported by a large group of people, men, women or children, doesn't make them right. Look at the Anti-vax movement.

Yes, a lot of people can be taken in by persuasive arguments and weasel words.

Doodledog They were however enthusiastically supported by many women. Those who regarded the permissive and artistic culture growing in places like Berlin as a real threat and believed in the economic promises.

I think we all went to school, and will be aware of the rise of the Nazis. They weren't hot on women's rights either, and in common with other extremist parties employed communication strategiess similar to the 'all feminists should support all women' one mentioned above.

I don't have loyalty to trisher. She and I have never been in contact other than on the forums.

I just think that she is mostly very patient and continues to engage way beyond a point that most others including me would throw in the towel. I'm too intolerant.

trisher You amuse me.

I haven't accused anyone of Nazi sympathies I simply pointed out that personal appearance was a standard they used to discriminate. Perhaps some weren't aware of that. It is though exactly how right wing parties come to power. Blame one group of humans for all the ills of the society. Focus on them and direct all hate and dissatisfaction towards them. Once you have disposed of them or sent them into hiding begin on another sub-group.

Most of my posts have been quite measured and I have made quite a few positive suggestions which none of you seem to want to undertake.
I do admit to having a sense of humour about this whole thing and sometimes being unable to resist taking the piss.

Doodledog you' re quite right I should have said people who don't want to see people naked. The fact that it is in the women's changing room confused me (and I was on my way out)

That's fine. It is so easy to trip over words when posting in a hurry.

GagaJo

Doodledog, MOnica, Germanshepherdsmum. You're lucky trisher still engages with you, in all honesty. Frankly, she's a model of restraint. I can't participate without wanting to lower myself to your level.

GagaJo you don't participate anyway.

All you ever do on these threads is tell others to post from life experience that you don't define, and tell us about your record of 'activism' as though you are the only person on the boards to do anything for others. I can't think of a single thing that you have ever added to the debate.

Your loyalty to trisher is touching, but if you read the thread, you will see that it is she who has accused people of Nazi sympathies in classic Godwin's Law style, of telling lies, of not being assertive, of not supporting other women, of having a victim mentality, of not understanding that most DV happens in the home and countless other diversions and insults.

When she posted a measured response earlier, people were willing to allow her to back down a bit with dignity and engage sensibly, but before we knew it we were being accused of 'using personal slurs'. If you can't see the irony of that, I am sure that others reading the thread will see it.

Germanshepherdsmum well someone has to explain as you obviously think judging on personal appearnce is still OK. I'm afraid it isn't. You can feel whatever you like but to imagine those feelings are somehow justified because someone doesn't look or conform with some standard you have somehow aquired from somewhere isn't acceptable. Presumably because you only go by personal appearance you will be happy to share with a transwoman if she is looks suitably female. Perhaps someone like Ru Paul would be admissable in this world of yours.
I have no doubt you would be happier if I stopped engaging. It's obvious that you choose to maintain the narrowest possible views.
Doodledog you' re quite right I should have said people who don't want to see people naked. The fact that it is in the women's changing room confused me (and I was on my way out)

GagaJo, I wish trisher would stop engaging. I feel extremely unlucky that she just keeps on and on like a broken record. What makes you think I’m lucky to be on the receiving end of her abuse? A model of restraint is she? Well at least you won’t be participating further by the sound of it. Small mercies. Quite happy with my level thank you - but hey, aren’t you being a tad judgmental there?

My goodness trisher you must have spent a while looking for that one in order to create another diversion. Back to the disabled, black and Nazi diversions too. You must judge my short and medium term memory to be very poor. I merely related my experience many years ago and described my feelings. So far as I am aware it’s not illegal to have those feelings nor to reveal that you have them in a situation such as this. If you aren’t fazed by seeing someone very obviously male, unshaven and wearing full makeup and a dress (though perhaps you would have been back then), even perhaps to see them in the budgie smugglers you mentioned earlier or naked in a women’s changing room that’s your affair. It’s not for you to tell me what or how I may and may not feel. I have said nothing about character nor have I judged the man in question save to clock that he was very obviously male, but trying very unsuccessfully to appear otherwise.
What you said to MOnica was extremely nasty and uncalled for. If anyone is lowering the tone here it isn’t her.

Doodledog, MOnica, Germanshepherdsmum. You're lucky trisher still engages with you, in all honesty. Frankly, she's a model of restraint. I can't participate without wanting to lower myself to your level.

Oh dear, and it was going so well.

No idea *Doodledog but it was first done about ten years ago (I forget exactly when) so I doubt it. Women who don't want to see other women naked I expect which is justified.

How is it justifiable for women not to want to see other women naked, but not so for women who don't want to see men naked?

This is the very sort of post that really screams of seeing the needs of transmen as paramount.

All the sarcastic comments about women fainting at the sight of a penis, and suggestions that we get 'hen parties' to scare off men who shouldn't be there in the first place, or that we should learn to be assertive (a bit rich from the Queen of passive aggression!) when we talk about a man in the female changing rooms, but at the same time you accept that there are women who don't want to see other women naked. Can't you see the dissonance there?

Germanshepherdsmum
I find the idea of an intact man trying to look like a woman repulsive, likewise when a ‘woman’ (how some of you will enjoy the inverted commas) is interviewed on tv and the features and voice are clearly those of a man. That is how I feel and whatever anyone thinks of those feelings won’t change them. I doubt I’m unique amongst my generation. I have only once seen someone very obviously male dressed and made up as a woman. That would have been in the 80s but I can still see his face, the whiskers and blue eyeshadow, such was my horror then
I am highly unlikely to take any advice from anyone posting things like this. Judging by personal appearance hasn't been acceptable for years. It's one of the reasons disabled people were locked away- because people didn't like looking at them. It's one reason some concluded that black people were inferior.. It was used by the Nazis to identify non-Aryans. Someone I know had her head, face and nose measured when she was at school in Germany to see if she fitted the Aryan ideal
I thought most people realised today that looks are nothing to do with character..

Hello M0nica dropped in to lower the tone? Anything interesting or original to add to the discussion?