Taxing the rich to pay for the poor

Elegran

In my post referred to by GSM are three things which I believe enable someone from a "working-class" family to make the most of him/herself, They are health, education and confidence.

Clearly GSM had plenty of the last, when she set off to train for a profession which would give her job satisfaction and a quality of life she would not have enjoyed otherwise. Not all those living in a rundown housing estate are so lucky. Perhaps they come from a family who are unable to get employment and have no savings, for whatever reason, and their schoolfriends have no plans beyond "the dole" and gathering in a gang to ogle girls and repel rival gangs on their territory.

A child in those circumstances will have no confidence in his/her ability to do anything more challenging, more interesting only to follow in their parents' footsteps. A minority find confidence in a grim determination not to go under in the tide of apathy - but most will drown.

But suppose that child likes to draw cartoon characters, or to invent dramatic stories, or play tunes on a guitar, or to make scraps of wood into toys, or care for animals. These qualities may never be skilled enough to take them into careers where they will have enough spare cash to develop a lifestyle where they own a Merc and a big house in the Home Counties, (even hitting the bigtime in the entertainment and art worlds takes luck as well as talent) but if the skills are nurtured they will still have them as adults. They will be using them for the benefit of the people they look after. - and for their own mental well-being, keeping them from needing medical attention.

Society is wider than just the intellectual professions.

You are very wrong in thinking that I possessed plenty of confidence. That’s something I have never had, though I have learned not to let it show. Nor have I ever had good health. I attended a state grammar school. I came from a working class family but despite being blind my father always worked, and as a result I have always had a strong work ethic. Can you imagine just reading legal text books in the evenings and at weekends, buying some old exam papers to get an idea of what was required and then turning up at Alexandra Palace to sit the exams amongst crowing ex-public school boys (judging by their accents)? At one exam one such specimen said to his friend, I kid you not, ‘Bloody awful paper last year wasn’t it?’. They were re-sitting. I was terrified - but, having imagined that nothing short of perfection would do, I did very well. The clutch of distinctions I got still didn’t give me confidence - as I still had to find articles which despite my academic achievement wasn’t easy as a married woman without a degree. You either have determination to better yourself or you don’t. One of my husband’s most successful employees was a black lad from a large family living on a council estate. He shared a room with his brothers and had no quiet place to study - but he did well at school and at university because he was determined to make a better life for himself. You either have that quality or you don’t.

But you did it in a deliberate attempt to "better yourself" beause you knew at heart that you could be better than you were - that takes intelligence and self-knowledge. If you had not been aware of that, because you didn't know the possibilities that could be ahead of you, and believed that you would never be anything more than the failures around you, you might not have bothered, and if your father had not been an example of working hard at what he did, you might not have continued to work on your dry texts in the evenings and weekends when you could have been out with friends.

Also, you clearly have an IQ level and reading level that helped you understand those wordy texts and apply them to the problems you meet in your work. Not everyone has those advantages as well as the disadvantages of being working-c;ass and not rich. It would have been much harder for someone of lesser intelligence whose father either didn't work or did the minimum for his pay, and who had been told at school for years what a dunderhead he was. The temptation to give up and just coast on the study front would be strong.

Yes, I had the advantage of a good brain, and I was driven - I didn’t know if I could do it but my boss at the time, who had failed his law exams, was of the opinion that I was only a secretary and would never pass my exams. A typical 1970s male chauvinist. That simply made me more determined, so he rather shot himself in the foot!

I was lucky to have a stable home with decent parents and that in itself is a huge asset to any child.

In 1982 I was running groups for girls who were school avoiders, trouble disrupters when in school, shop lifters, living life on the edge of trouble. I worked with a colleague, we were given half a day weekly to plan, run, review our groups. We were young enthusiasts. We ran 4 over a year. I kid you not, our girls returned to school. They were given Wednesday afternoon off final lesson to come to the group.
As well as group activities, group work we took them camping in the lakes or Derbyshire. Each trip involved visits to museums, art galleries and theatre. One time we took them to a contemporary dance show, which included some traditional ballet. They didn’t want to go - booorring they said. They were quickly spell bound, silent until the end when they whooped, whistled and stamped their feet.
They’re in their 50’s now. One did a fine arts degree and uses it in the therapeutic work she does with children in care. Occasionally, one will track me down to say thanks.
This kind of work with disaffected, disadvantaged children is valuable but now dismissed as a waste of money - lock them up or beat them back on some agendas

Well done! An inspirational story.

Germanshepherdsmum

Well done! An inspirational story.

I agree.

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes, I had the advantage of a good brain, and I was driven - I didn’t know if I could do it but my boss at the time, who had failed his law exams, was of the opinion that I was only a secretary and would never pass my exams. A typical 1970s male chauvinist. That simply made me more determined, so he rather shot himself in the foot!

I was lucky to have a stable home with decent parents and that in itself is a huge asset to any child.

Well done, GSM That showed him! But you do see how those without a stable home, decent parents and a work ethic, and quite likely a friend group with no ambition, would have nothing to brace themselves against to pull themselves up by the bootstraps? There is a quote on the lines of "Give me somewhere solid to stand and I will lift up the earth?" They need to be given a start that provides somewhere solid to stand on while they do the lifting.

Iam64's story shows what a difference can be made.

As far as the Arts go let's deal with the misconception that they are somehow a cost and not a benefit. The arts sector is a growing section of the economy worldwide www.thepolicycircle.org/minibrief/the-creative-economy/#:~:text=According%20to%20UN%20estimates%2C%20the,nearly%2050%20million%20jobs%20worldwide.
In the UK the arts is a major contributor to the economy and a major employer.
The UK was the fifth largest exporter of creative services in 2020, after the US, Ireland, Germany and China. It said the UK’s creative services were worth $57bn, equivalent to 5.4% of all creative services exports that year
The UK was the seventh largest exporter of creative goods, after China, the United States, Italy, Germany, Hong Kong and France. The total value of UK creative goods exports that year was $15bn, 2.9% of all creative goods exports.
So the idea that we can't afford it is wrong.

And then there is Mental Health.
Participation in the Arts improves mental health
www.mentalhealth.org.uk/explore-mental-health/blogs/how-arts-can-help-improve-your-mental-health

What a wonderful story Iam64.
Our society needs to do more for children to address inequality.

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes, I had the advantage of a good brain, and I was driven - I didn’t know if I could do it but my boss at the time, who had failed his law exams, was of the opinion that I was only a secretary and would never pass my exams. A typical 1970s male chauvinist. That simply made me more determined, so he rather shot himself in the foot!

I was lucky to have a stable home with decent parents and that in itself is a huge asset to any child.

I was lucky to have a stable home with decent parents and that in itself is a huge asset to any child.

Yes, that resonates with me - I don't mean in terms of my own experience, but as a truism.

A stable home life, even if impoverished, is IMO, the linchpin that enables a child to withstand the inevitable problems encountered as they grow from childhood to adulthood.

As 'society' has evolved it appears (to me) that progress, constitutionally, economically and culturally, has solved problems, but has at the same time created more.

There are so many influences now that didn't exist, say 50 / 60 years ago. We even have so-called "influencers" who have the power to affect decisions that young people make via their personal 'branding' - possibly promoting unrealistic and unattainable lifestyles.

Young people are on their devices constantly - who knows what the heck they are looking at or who they are communicating with on social media platforms.

I'd imagine the physical, mental and emotional effort required from parents today is exhausting. Given the chaotic lives that some children appear to lead, clearly some parents can't /won't or don't hack it.

As a single parent in the 70s, my son came home from school, did his homework, watched TV (maybe) or went round to one of his friend's houses for an hour and then went to bed with a book. His father (always present) encouraged him in sports, at weekends I took him to museums or a picnic in the park, and sometimes we found a couple of threadbare tennis balls and played tennis in the free courts in the same park.

It's all so different today.

Thank you for the story Iam just so wish that educators had been a fraction of those resources.

Liked the Boss Story GSM and wish I'd stood up for myself in similar.

This was a long time ago but correct me if I’m wrong. We took out student loans for both of ours because the interest rate was miniscule. At the same time savings interest rates were very good. However, after they’d finished at uni a loan company took it over and the interest rate went through the roof. Even if we tried to pay it off in a lump sum (which is what we tried to do) we couldn’t keep up with the amount of compound interest. I don’t remember being told about the interest rate change, either. Years ago I knew an American man who told us how many thousands he owed in college fees and I was horrified at the thought of young people being saddled with so much debt: never thought it would happen here. And I’ve never got over nurses having to pay to train as nurses; to me it’s so wrong.

(I actually left a job because of male bullying in the 1980's by an influential colleague, not just direct but spreading lies - 3 years down the line he was sacked for bullying but since my own boss didn't back me too late)

Wyllow3

Thank you for the story Iam just so wish that educators had been a fraction of those resources.

Liked the Boss Story GSM and wish I'd stood up for myself in similar.

Oh, I didn’t stand up to him, Wyllow. I needed the job. I just thought to myself that I would do my damnedest to prove him wrong. I was allowed a day’s leave before each exam for revision and the day of the exam. He always, without fail, came up with a heap of typing which he’d obviously been saving up, just before the ‘revision day’. Fortunately I was a fast worker. He really was a snidey, brown-nosing little git. Really fancied himself as a ladies’ man. Long dead I imagine.

Germanshepherdsmum

Wyllow3

Thank you for the story Iam just so wish that educators had been a fraction of those resources.

Liked the Boss Story GSM and wish I'd stood up for myself in similar.

Oh, I didn’t stand up to him, Wyllow. I needed the job. I just thought to myself that I would do my damnedest to prove him wrong. I was allowed a day’s leave before each exam for revision and the day of the exam. He always, without fail, came up with a heap of typing which he’d obviously been saving up, just before the ‘revision day’. Fortunately I was a fast worker. He really was a snidey, brown-nosing little git. Really fancied himself as a ladies’ man. Long dead I imagine.

Have you ever considered GSM that your views in many ways are similar to that man's? That you put people into boxes and condemn them on unjustified and biased reasoning? So students who can't repay their loans are cheaters. Lawyers who work in criminal law are not as clever as others. Art degrees are useless and the arts just an unnecessary expense.
It's very similar to assuming women can only ever be secretaries.

? I think GSM is describing a particular type of male in power often found at that time.

GSM I was lucky to have a stable home with decent parents and that in itself is a huge asset to any child.

I believe a stable home and decent parents are the most important asset any child can have. My parents were what we might call (today) upper middle class. I wanted for nothing. But they also couldn't/didn't waste frivolously as they had too many children. No pony for me or my sisters.

Unfortunately/fortunately (?) my father felt University was for males - my brother graduated Cambridge. I got married very young to the love of my life - as I couldn't attend University, may as well have sex and babies instead, in our opinions - brother is wildly successful and wealthy, has never been happy in a marriage until he retired, moved home and married in his 60s.

There are different paths and successes.

Wyllow3

? I think GSM is describing a particular type of male in power often found at that time.

Whose views were biased and unreasonable.
Isn't the problem that he put women into a box and believed they were worthless?

Is it OK for women to have biased and unreasonable views now? Are all Arts students useless.? Are all poorly paid graduates stealing from the taxpayer?

All this reminds me of George Orwell yet again - ‘all men are equal but some are more equal than others’

Have you ever considered GSM that your views in many ways are similar to that man's? That you put people into boxes and condemn them on unjustified and biased reasoning? So students who can't repay their loans are cheaters. Lawyers who work in criminal law are not as clever as others. Art degrees are useless and the arts just an unnecessary expense.
It's very similar to assuming women can only ever be secretaries.

Good point.

My opinions are very far removed from his, Glorianny. He had failed his exams twice and didn’t want to see me succeed. I have the utmost respect for those who work hard to get a better life from themselves. Determination is a quality which I greatly admire. But yes, I do question the ethics of those who study for a degree which they know will not lead to a career which enables them to repay their debt. I would never dream of taking on a debt which I couldn’t repay.

As regards criminal lawyers, my views are the same as those of the majority of my peers.

Who would teach on courses that people take for personal fulfilment (however expensive) if nobody got sufficient education to do so?

And it's all been said already - we're going round in circles:

the chances are that few people sign up for a course thinking that they'll stay a low earner forever.

Some jobs are very valuable but low paid.

Not all value is monetary.

Those on low incomes often pay more for education, as interest is added until the loans are paid.

Not everyone sees a high salary as an overwhelming motive.

Gradgrindian facts and rote learning may lead to well-paid jobs, but people skills and creativity can enrich the lives of others far more.

Sometimes it takes one megastar in an area to bring in more money than all the others in the field put together - cost/benefit analyses are not straightforward.

League tables measure graduate incomes 18 months after graduation. In some roles that is when people will be earning a lot more than peers in other areas, but how many poets or artists (or teachers, or nurses) earn much at the beginning of their working lives? It's a ludicrously flawed system, largely based on getting figures when people can still be contacted, and takes no account of lifetime earnings, even if they were the be all and end all, but it is used to decide which courses should close.

" . . . a degree which they know will not lead to a career which enables them to repay their debt." but they don't know that. They think that they will be able to repay it. They only find out that all streets are not paved with gold for graduates once they have finished the degree course and are launched into the wide cut-throat world. Too late.

You are very charitable, Elegran. I would suggest that most don’t give a toss so long as they can have their ‘university experience’.