Taxing the rich to pay for the poor

Ah I see the number of Higher level has increased. All the rest have fallen.

Perhaps they qualify. Perhaps they drop out. Perhaps they don’t take the opportunity.

I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say, David. Many young people seem to lack discipline. And I have no doubt that many go to university for ‘the experience’, rather than to learn.

David49

I utterly, and respectfully, disagree with you too.

It maybe your experience that the younger generation are unable to “turn up to work on time, turn off their smartphones and follow instructions”, but it entirely different to mine.

As we had our “second family” later in life at almost 66 our three youngest children still in their twenties. None of them, nor their close friends and girlfriends, have any issue with the above.

I find them all hard working folk, with the ability and will to learn, follow instructions, turn up on time and in my daughters case particularly (as a school teacher) her smartphone is off and locked away in her desk drawer during class hours.

What a sad view of our younger generation you have.

Germanshepherdsmum

I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say, David. Many young people seem to lack discipline. And I have no doubt that many go to university for ‘the experience’, rather than to learn.

What’s wrong with having the university “experience”? They will be learning many life skills as well as their degree subjects and many make lifelong friendships.

They’re not there to party, Cossy.

I have no doubt that your children are not like those David described, but too many parents are so obsessed with their phones, and don’t work, so their children have no positive role models and are not disciplined.

Germanshepherdsmum

The government has already created 5.7m apprenticeships Glorianny, and is pledging a further 10k.
www.michaelgove.com/news/apprenticeship-week-michael-gove-celebrates-560-apprenticeship-starts-surrey-heath-last-year

Believe my, and I know from both personal experience and from professional work, many of the apprenticeships created are very very hard to actually win a place and competition is extremely high, which in some instances, defeats the whole our purpose.

There are instances where this needs to happen but many ask for experience? Why? The whole point of a on apprenticeship is to learn!

Germanshepherdsmum

They’re not there to party, Cossy.

I have no doubt that your children are not like those David described, but too many parents are so obsessed with their phones, and don’t work, so their children have no positive role models and are not disciplined.

I don’t believe I mentioned “partying” GSM, I’ve made friends from work, I wasn’t “partying” there.

I think there’s too much rubbish spoken about our younger generations (not suggesting you GSM), especially those aged between 18-25, who grew up in an entirely different world to us. As for their parents being “obsessed with their phones”, I have witnessed on too many occasions, a mum or dad walking along, totally ignoring their children whilst on their phones, so whilst I agree with you here, I still believe that they are very much in the minority. You retired a little before me, didn’t retire until October 2022, so was still in the workforce working with some truly brilliant parents of young children who spent their free time doing great things with their children.

There’s the difference, working parents do set good examples, do turn off their phones, do set boundaries for Therese children.

But here’s the rub, so many cuts have been made to family services which would have supported Mum’s/dads who, in come cases, due to their own backgrounds, never had good role models so actually do not know how to parent properly. Bring back better support for vulnerable families.

“Their” not sure why (not-so smart) phone has auto-corrected this!!!

There is more to it that the govt creating 5.7m apprenticeships. Tradesmen and small businesses taking on apprentices have to pay them the going rate, pay for their exams and give them time off to attend classes. What they get back in return, in actual work in between the classes, is not, to begin with, of very good quality, naturally, and is slow and needs to be closely supervised. Once they have finished the apprenticeship and qualified, there is nothing to stop them from getting a job with a competitor, or moving to a different town to work. It is a big responsibility for the employer, financially and in terms of covering the work of the firm.

Many school leavers at vocational level have no concept of work or the need to earn living, boys are much worse than girls.
It takes time and effort for an employer to train an apprentice if they are not committed it’s his time wasted this is why employers are not enthusiastic about apprentices. A friend is a carpenter he needs an apprentice he tried 3 but spent too much time redoing poor work, he now gets a semi retired man to help out part time.

Elegran

There is more to it that the govt creating 5.7m apprenticeships. Tradesmen and small businesses taking on apprentices have to pay them the going rate, pay for their exams and give them time off to attend classes. What they get back in return, in actual work in between the classes, is not, to begin with, of very good quality, naturally, and is slow and needs to be closely supervised. Once they have finished the apprenticeship and qualified, there is nothing to stop them from getting a job with a competitor, or moving to a different town to work. It is a big responsibility for the employer, financially and in terms of covering the work of the firm.

Getting a job as a compettitor is not a problem, craftsmen get a lot of pleasure saying “l” trained him, he’s not really competition, after 3 yrs he’s a friend too. There is plenty of work for skilled workers of all kinds, try finding one when you need one.

A decorator we used said that he had taken on a young lad to train up, only to find that he was perpetually too tired to work and even sloped off to have a sleep in the van. He was, of course, dismissed.

All our plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics, hairdressers, butchers have had to serve apprenticeships - it’s hardly a new concept. But it does mean turning up for work each morning and being willing to take orders. Is it more of a problem to get kids to do that nowadays?

Elegran

There is more to it that the govt creating 5.7m apprenticeships. Tradesmen and small businesses taking on apprentices have to pay them the going rate, pay for their exams and give them time off to attend classes. What they get back in return, in actual work in between the classes, is not, to begin with, of very good quality, naturally, and is slow and needs to be closely supervised. Once they have finished the apprenticeship and qualified, there is nothing to stop them from getting a job with a competitor, or moving to a different town to work. It is a big responsibility for the employer, financially and in terms of covering the work of the firm.

Please could we stop repeating the lie that the government created 5.7million apprenticeships.
From the House of Commons statistics
In the 2022/23 academic year, there were 752,150 people participating in an apprenticeship in England, with 337,140 apprenticeship starts and 162,320 apprenticeship achievements. The number of starts fell in 2022/23 by 12,100, or 3%, from the number of starts in the previous academic year. 23 Jan 2024

And during the rest of the government’s tenure?

Plumbers do not have to serve apprenticeships, nor do hairdressers or electricians. They can all qualify through college courses.

I posted the figures before but here they are again
As you will see all except higher level have fallen.

Glorianny, the norm is for them to serve an apprenticeship during which the employer will pay for them to go to college. So they earn while they learn.

Germanshepherdsmum

A decorator we used said that he had taken on a young lad to train up, only to find that he was perpetually too tired to work and even sloped off to have a sleep in the van. He was, of course, dismissed.

All our plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics, hairdressers, butchers have had to serve apprenticeships - it’s hardly a new concept. But it does mean turning up for work each morning and being willing to take orders. Is it more of a problem to get kids to do that nowadays?

DD and SIL have found that when employing young local workers sent by an agency, turn up late, hung over (or worse), then a day off because they're a bit under the weather. The foreign workers, on the other hand, are keen and hardworking.
That is not in this country, btw, so perhaps it's a widespread phenomenon.

That was me. And I didn't mean it in the way you seem to have taken it

No, it wasn't you Doodledog. It was another poster.

Germanshepherdsmum

*Glorianny*, the norm is for them to serve an apprenticeship during which the employer will pay for them to go to college. So they earn while they learn.

No it isn't as the drop in apprenticeships shows.
The current apprenticeship intake figures are extremely encouraging, but demand for apprenticeships continues to outstrip supply and we need more employers to get involved if we are to address the skills shortage,” said Ruth Devine, Chair of TESP and Managing Director of SJD Electrical

Cossy

Germanshepherdsmum

I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say, David. Many young people seem to lack discipline. And I have no doubt that many go to university for ‘the experience’, rather than to learn.

What’s wrong with having the university “experience”? They will be learning many life skills as well as their degree subjects and many make lifelong friendships.

My parents were all the "right" things but narrow in many respects tho I was taught to speak up.

I had little or no experience of living away from home, meeting people from widely diverse backgrounds, learning about how systems work and how I could find a place in them, negotiating different social situations, communicating well in same, being able to encounter and overcome personal issues but with support - the list could go on.

So for young people with clearly disadvantaged backgrounds these skills are all the more necessary, and they deserve the chances and support to grow. It's insulting to shrink this to going to parties.

I went to a very entitled university, and the stories I could tell of partying and put downs from the very "entitled" ones would curdle milk.

Dinahmo

I blame the parents! Those who want their children to go to uni regardless of what the child may wish to do.

Of my friends' children one or two were very good at art and were persuaded not to go to art school but to study a more "useful" subject. Art could be kept as a hobby.

The majority of my clients are artists and most of them went to art school. Few of them made a lot of money when they were young and so they did other jobs. A postman or two, a haulier, several art teachers whether at school or college. Most of them continued to create work and to endeavor to show it. Making one's work known to the public is the most difficult although these days it is easier with online shops.

Our painter and decorator has a degree in Art and Design. 🙂
It's definitely not wasted, although i think she either just missed having to pay tuition fees or went when they were £9,000 pa.

Callistemon21

^That was me. And I didn't mean it in the way you seem to have taken it^

No, it wasn't you Doodledog. It was another poster.

Yes, apologies to Vintagewhine

It was you.

I still read a contempt for those in less well- paid (but essential) jobs whih is quite astonishing.

It can be difficult to get an apprenticeship so frequently school leavers do a level 2 or 3 Diploma at college provided they have the required GCSE's. Once they have the basics it is easier for them to find a trades person to take them on as an apprentice.