Taxing the rich to pay for the poor

growstuff how on earth can you see what people earn through PAYE?

People’s tax affairs are private…

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/earningsandemploymentfrompayasyouearnrealtimeinformationuk/latest

Median pay across the NUTS3 regions of the UK in May 2024 ranged from £2,057 in Leicester to £3,635 in Wandsworth (Figure 7).

Even in Wandsworth, half of all PAYE earners earned less than £43,620 gross. After paying for essential bills, how much do you think those people would have left to save?

Taxes don't fund spending, anyway... so this is all a pointless discussion.

I find it so depressing, in a society that is insistent on the sanctity of human life, that we still can't work out how to ensure that all these sanctified lives are adequately supported.

Yes, let the poor, eke out a miserable existence because it's plainly their fault that they're in that situation.

MaizieD incentivise employers to pay their employees a wage they can do more than exist on

Happy employees are far more productive, do not move from job to job, win win situation for business and the general population, not rocket science…

There is also the fact that there is a booming cash economy in the UK comprised of builders, gardeners, cleaners, window cleaners, tutors etc., all prefer to be paid in cash, nobody know how much they declare to HMRC.

Germanshepherdsmum

Whose expectations? Those who have the money or those who want to get a slice of it?

So things should just stay status quo ? No improvements for the lower earners on the backs of the wealthy ? How Dickensian!

growstuff

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/earningsandemploymentfrompayasyouearnrealtimeinformationuk/latest

Median pay across the NUTS3 regions of the UK in May 2024 ranged from £2,057 in Leicester to £3,635 in Wandsworth (Figure 7).

Even in Wandsworth, half of all PAYE earners earned less than £43,620 gross. After paying for essential bills, how much do you think those people would have left to save?

It’s their business how much they save not yours, mine or anybody else’s.

I wonder if Sunak and his billions will be fleeing the country if he looses the election

Sago

MaizieD

Sago

We have friends that are poised to leave if Labour get in.
Our daughter,SIL and grandchildren will also be very likely to leave.
The people they employ in the home and garden, local dry cleaners, car valeters, butchers, fishmongers, restaurants, tailors etc will all suffer as a result.
The money wealthy people put into the local economy needs to be taken into account.

Where do they intend to go, Sago?.

I've always understood that 'capital flight' is, looking at past evidence, largely a bogey man rather than a reality.

Our daughter and SIL will go to the US.
Our friends to Jersey and Spain.

So your daughter will go to the US ?
She would likely end up in a red state ( low taxes) where books are banned .Where abortions will be severely restricted. Which will could affect the care you would get if you even miscarry. No surgical intervention which could be life endangering. Then she must dust off her bible and be ready for Jesus to be a very strange part of your everyday life . It’s not as private as it is here. You would also have to get used to the Trump flags, banners adorned on yards, cars , boats and of course heads and bodies. Then there are the guns worn or shown in obvious ways and the gun crime that comes with a nation flooded with rapid fire AR15 and all the gun mantra that goes with it. She will not be safe shopping, going to the movies or having her nails done. Her children will have to have active shooting drills in school and may be subject to an actual attack. Her money might be safe but she and her family won’t be !

It’s his wife who has most of the money. He worked in the US before going into politics and will probably return - why not? That’s not fleeing the country .

When you have enough money to employ someone to make sure you pay as little tax as possible and can use complicated and rather devious manner to do so, that would be where rich would start for me. Something like an ISA which is clear and obvious and available to all seems a fair way to encourage people to save. Being able to put most of your purchases as business that includes your private things, which are not used for your business. Companies like Starbucks etc who manage to move money through various countries which means they wangle ways of not paying a fair amount of tax. If tax was set out simply and clearly, so that we could all see when and where we owe the tax, and it is available to run things such as NHS and dentistry etc for all, not having dentist deserts etc., where those who can afford private have what treatment they need at the right time and others are going without, or have to wait so long that things will be worse by the time they are treated. That is the level where rich begins. If we can all see what is allowed and know how to claim the things that are permitted, without trying to avoid what is due that enables the whole country to have the basic needs not just certain areas.

Germanshepherdsmum

How do you know about the finances of ‘most people in this country’?

Here are a few ways that anyone can know about the finances of ‘most people in this country’.

www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/national-minimum-wage/

www.forbes.com/uk/advisor/business/average-uk-salary-by-age/

www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/united-kingdom The relevant summary of living costs are given per month, these equate annually to £52,368 for a family of four, and £30,036 for a single person.

For ‘most people in this country’ that doesn't leave much, if anything, out of which to save £20 a year.

Or £20k even.

Like others, you ignore the huge cash economy in the UK. Vast numbers of people are paid solely in cash. I wonder how many people on GN pay tradesmen, cleaners, market traders and tip solely in cash?

annsixty

I wonder if the new Duke and Duchess of Westminster will ever get round to spending their tens of billions?
No envy by the way, they are just a lucky and lovely young couple starting out on a life together but this is inherited wealth, not earned in any way.
I have no idea how much the estate paid in inheritance tax on the death of his father.

The Westminsters regularly donate £millions to charities and charitable foundations, including their own Westminster Foundation.

Ilovecheese

I can understand wanting to live in another country because you prefer their values and culture to our own. But just to hold on to a few quid?

Yes, leaving friends and family, a culture you're part of, social networks etc behind for money is an alien concept to me. I can understand people leaving war zones or oppressive regimes, and leaving countries where poverty is the norm; but the sort of economic migrancy that means fleeing tax bills just doesn't make sense.

Wealth is always relative, so even if someone is so driven by money that they would give up all of the above, their relative position will be the same as if they stayed put. If they earn more than the people around them they will be better off than their neighbours regardless of the taxes they pay, and after essentials are covered relatively small disparities in disposable income make a big difference to spending power. Moving to somewhere with lower taxes will mean that everyone else pays less, too, so they will still be on the same income, and have the same status and spending power as their peers, which will usually put them on pretty much the same place on the social hierarchy as here.

You don’t have to go far. Jersey is very nice, no culture shock, and some time ago we did contemplate moving there.

Sorry about the missing K. Actually, even saving £20 is difficult when your outgoings are more than your income.

"I wonder how many people on GN pay tradesmen, cleaners, market traders and tip solely in cash?" I myself don't have a cleaner, or buy from market traders, and seldom need to tip anyone. I have yet to employ a tradesman who didn't accept BAC transfers., perhaps because I don't go looking for the cheapest available work, and reliable established tradesmen tend also to be financially responsible.

I beg to differ Elegran I know plenty of ‘reliable, well established tradesmen’ who will do a cash deal (often to avoid VAT) or part payment in cash on big jobs.

Germanshepherdsmum

You have no idea how much I would give to the charities I already support, do you? That would give me enormous pleasure.

But it wouldn't give you pleasure to pay more tax and help those in our society who are less fortunate. We need a better redistribution of wealth.

Germanshepherdsmum

You don’t have to go far. Jersey is very nice, no culture shock, and some time ago we did contemplate moving there.

I'm sure it's lovely, but all of my post still applies. Economic migrants are everywhere, as we know, but unless they are escaping poverty, then leaving family, friends and social networks seems to me a high price to pay if they value those things. Work cultures differ hugely from place to place too. The US, for instance, might pay people more but the culture of presenteeism, the lack of holidays and employment rights make working there very different from here.

Tax rises might mean that there are people who leave the UK - different people value different things - but unless I know a spectacularly unrepresentative lot of people, I can't see it being a widespread thing.

There's a limit to how happy money can make you.

Germanshepherdsmum

You don’t have to go far. Jersey is very nice, no culture shock, and some time ago we did contemplate moving there.

Jersey may be very nice but moving there an buying property there is neither simple nor cheap. They want people with money.

nadateturbe

Germanshepherdsmum

You have no idea how much I would give to the charities I already support, do you? That would give me enormous pleasure.

But it wouldn't give you pleasure to pay more tax and help those in our society who are less fortunate. We need a better redistribution of wealth.

No, paying more tax would not give me pleasure. I donate to charities which have no state funding and that is my choice. I have paid a great deal of tax over the years and I continue to do so. And the state is likely to rob my estate when I die unless I can do some serious spending before then - which I fully intend to do.

Glorianny

Germanshepherdsmum

You don’t have to go far. Jersey is very nice, no culture shock, and some time ago we did contemplate moving there.

Jersey may be very nice but moving there an buying property there is neither simple nor cheap. They want people with money.

I know that. Do you think we would have considered it if we couldn’t afford it? As with everyone who chooses to move to avoid punitive taxes.

Excessive wealth seems very important to some.

I find it so depressing, in a society that is insistent on the sanctity of human life, that we still can't work out how to ensure that all these sanctified lives are adequately supported.
I find it very sad too.