Taxing the rich to pay for the poor

Iam64

Employers used to support long apprenticeships. Often they were aimed at what were seen as traditionally male areas of work. Engineering, building, carpentry etc. As well as providing excellent training, boys matured with older role models around them.
Polytechnics provided good training in a wide variety of work opportunities. My CQSW at Manchester Poly had 50 students (500 applicants for each course). An excellent two year course with high academic standards alongside 4 lengthy sessions as students in probation and social work settings. I was one of 8 home office sponsored students. The majority had been seconded by local authorities - we were paid a small salary and our training paid for by la or home office
This system meant a mixed group of students, different ages and life/work experience. Now we have three year sw degrees for 18 year olds. No life or proper work experience. They leave with 70,000 student debt. It’s daft. We should invest, as we used to do in training for skilled work and professions

Yes, I remember that course and was encouraged to apply for it by my employer (the Local Authority).
I was granted a place but did not take it up because, after very many years of trying, I was surprised to find myself pregnant. Afterwards, life and house moves took over.

I'm not sure I could have coped with the often traumatic nature of the work after becoming a mother, so well done Iam64.

Doodledog

Marvellous. So as in the past, only the rich can learn about literature, art, history etc. Everyone else is factory fodder. How do we get social mobility in that case? Or do we not try? Keep the majority in ignorance of life-enriching subjects, and let the factory owners (mostly Chinese, probably) determine what is taught to our young people.

What is a ‘graduate job’? Someone upthread talked about grandchildren without degrees getting them, which doesn’t make sense to me.

I agree with your post, Vintagewhine, and it seems that there have been almost wilful misunderstandings of what you were saying.

I question how many young people with an Arts degree will be happy then going on to train as a plumber, work as a street cleaner/bin person or any other manual job?

These jobs are necessary for a fully functioning society.

To think that everyone is capable or wants to go to uni is nonsensical.

Iam64 in our SME we constantly send employees on industry courses and seminars.

We have one employee who has changed their role within the company after showing interest in a particular aspect which we were outsourcing, after training it is now carried out in-house

Admittedly the outlay and cost to us will not break even for a while, but hopefully it will be a profitable asset, and with time, we hope to take on a young person as an apprentice.

50% of young people going to university is good for them, but we need many non-graduate trades and jobs filled to be a functioning economy.

Marvellous. So as in the past, only the rich can learn about literature, art, history etc. Everyone else is factory fodder. How do we get social mobility in that case? Or do we not try? Keep the majority in ignorance of life-enriching subjects, and let the factory owners (mostly Chinese, probably) determine what is taught to our young people.

What is a ‘graduate job’? Someone upthread talked about grandchildren without degrees getting them, which doesn’t make sense to me.

I agree with your post, Vintagewhine, and it seems that there have been almost wilful misunderstandings of what you were saying.

Employers used to support long apprenticeships. Often they were aimed at what were seen as traditionally male areas of work. Engineering, building, carpentry etc. As well as providing excellent training, boys matured with older role models around them.
Polytechnics provided good training in a wide variety of work opportunities. My CQSW at Manchester Poly had 50 students (500 applicants for each course). An excellent two year course with high academic standards alongside 4 lengthy sessions as students in probation and social work settings. I was one of 8 home office sponsored students. The majority had been seconded by local authorities - we were paid a small salary and our training paid for by la or home office
This system meant a mixed group of students, different ages and life/work experience. Now we have three year sw degrees for 18 year olds. No life or proper work experience. They leave with 70,000 student debt. It’s daft. We should invest, as we used to do in training for skilled work and professions

I used to teach on HND courses also on Access to higher education courses. Students were often those who for a variety of reasons had not achieved their potential at school, quite a few were mothers with young children who were on benefits but their aim was to go to university to change their lives and that of their kids and they did. I wonder how many try to do that now but end up saddled with debt. Perhaps someone knows, my experience was late 90's

I agree that University should be free but there should be much more emphasis on the skills the nation needs Nurses, Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers. The state should only provide free places in the skills we need, the rich can pay for places for their children if they wish.

Not at all I'm a fan of apprenticeships. We need more high quality training opportunities for those who want to take that route, two of my grandkids have done that. I want choice for poorer school leavers that's the same as those who come from richer families.

Seems like some would be happy to go back to the time when the rich could go to university possibly do a Grand tour to complete their education whilst the rest are trained for work

Those young rich people would not have needed to work.

When I was young, only about 3% of people went to university. Now, I believe it is 50% which is astonishing. Many courses which awarded HND or similar qualifications years ago led to excellent careers and education could be continued throughout life.

Of course some careers require a degree but good apprenticeship schemes are invaluable and should not be sneered at.

Callistemon21

^whilst the rest are trained for work. How sad that would be^

It sounds as if you're belittling apprenticeships.

IMO training for work in the form of good apprenticeships is invaluable. We need a well-trained and qualified workforce, tradespeople, as much as we need those with a university degree, to support the economy and to keep society tprunning smoothly.

👏👏👏

whilst the rest are trained for work. How sad that would be

It sounds as if you're belittling apprenticeships.

IMO training for work in the form of good apprenticeships is invaluable. We need a well-trained and qualified workforce, tradespeople, as much as we need those with a university degree, to support the economy and to keep society tprunning smoothly.

Seems like some would be happy to go back to the time when the rich could go to university possibly do a Grand tour to complete their education whilst the rest are trained for work. How sad that would be. IMO education is never a waste of money and if graduates can't pay back their loans perhaps it's because they are paid too little or the terms of repayment are unfair. I benefitted from a free education with a maintenance grant that was just enough to live on and it changed my life as it did for many working class people. If I have to pay more tax to protect the services that help poorer people, I'm happy to do that. What about adding vat to private healthcare with that money going to the NHS?

Dinahmo

Germanshepherdsmum

Glorianny, it has always been patently obvious that the rules of student loan repayments are such that some will never pay back anything at all. I have fallen for nothing. It’s very much the fault of those using the system in the knowledge that they will never earn enough to repay their debt - basically, it’s fraud. Would you order something, or engage a tradesman, knowing that you were not going to be able to pay?

Where is your evidence for young people going to uni with the aid of a student with the knowledge that they will never pay it back?

They are told that if they don’t earn enough they don’t have to repay, around half don’t repay student loans, far more than expected.
It’s obvious far more are going to university than there are graduate jobs, with AI making administration and research less labour intensive it will get worse.

I haven't read all the comments but just wanted to say, I don't think students should have to pay fees for university.

Germanshepherdsmum

*Glorianny*, it has always been patently obvious that the rules of student loan repayments are such that some will never pay back anything at all. I have fallen for nothing. It’s very much the fault of those using the system in the knowledge that they will never earn enough to repay their debt - basically, it’s fraud. Would you order something, or engage a tradesman, knowing that you were not going to be able to pay?

Where is your evidence for young people going to uni with the aid of a student with the knowledge that they will never pay it back?

Thanks Cossy. Loving and supportive parents are priceless.

Glorianny, your inability to understand the difference between my views and those of the man for whom I worked - who was not my employer - is your problem. The reasons for the views held by anyone are never irrelevant - everyone’s views are shaped by their own experiences.

What you don’t understand is that the law is a vastly oversubscribed profession and only the best will get a training contract, let alone go on to earn a good salary. I don’t comment on the teaching profession because I have no experience of it. Perhaps, for the same reason, you might refrain from commenting on the legal profession.

Absolutely right Cossy - wise and good parenting, responsible role models and a continuing interest in their welfare and success, in whatever they choose to do- academic or practical- costs no money.

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes, I had the advantage of a good brain, and I was driven - I didn’t know if I could do it but my boss at the time, who had failed his law exams, was of the opinion that I was only a secretary and would never pass my exams. A typical 1970s male chauvinist. That simply made me more determined, so he rather shot himself in the foot!

I was lucky to have a stable home with decent parents and that in itself is a huge asset to any child.

You should rightly feel so proud of your achievements.

I think your parents must also have encouraged you and given you a great start in life with their support and love and work ethic. No amount of money can buy this.

nadateturbe

What a wonderful story Iam64.
Our society needs to do more for children to address inequality.

It certainly does!

Germanshepherdsmum

My opinions are very far removed from his, Glorianny. He had failed his exams twice and didn’t want to see me succeed. I have the utmost respect for those who work hard to get a better life from themselves. Determination is a quality which I greatly admire. But yes, I do question the ethics of those who study for a degree which they know will not lead to a career which enables them to repay their debt. I would never dream of taking on a debt which I couldn’t repay.

As regards criminal lawyers, my views are the same as those of the majority of my peers.

Sorry I can't see much difference. The reasons for his views or yours are largely irrelevant.
How can any one at 18 know that the degree they study will or will not lead to them getting a job with sufficient salary to repay their student debt.
As for not taking on a debt they couldn't repay, if all 18 year olds considered that how many would simply not take on the debt? How many people would the professions be short of then?
And even your assumptions about law graduates is wrong. Many of them start at a salary that means they will not be paying off their student debt as soon as they graduate.
www.savethestudent.org/student-jobs/whats-the-expected-salary-for-your-degree.html#:~:text=This%20means%20that%2C%20although%20a,year%20depending%20on%20your%20role.

So your employer was wrong about you.
You are proved by the figures to be wrong about the Arts.
You are proved by the salaries linked to to be wrong about the repayment of student debt.

Majority views are not always right.

You are very charitable, Elegran. I would suggest that most don’t give a toss so long as they can have their ‘university experience’.

" . . . a degree which they know will not lead to a career which enables them to repay their debt." but they don't know that. They think that they will be able to repay it. They only find out that all streets are not paved with gold for graduates once they have finished the degree course and are launched into the wide cut-throat world. Too late.

Who would teach on courses that people take for personal fulfilment (however expensive) if nobody got sufficient education to do so?

And it's all been said already - we're going round in circles:

the chances are that few people sign up for a course thinking that they'll stay a low earner forever.

Some jobs are very valuable but low paid.

Not all value is monetary.

Those on low incomes often pay more for education, as interest is added until the loans are paid.

Not everyone sees a high salary as an overwhelming motive.

Gradgrindian facts and rote learning may lead to well-paid jobs, but people skills and creativity can enrich the lives of others far more.

Sometimes it takes one megastar in an area to bring in more money than all the others in the field put together - cost/benefit analyses are not straightforward.

League tables measure graduate incomes 18 months after graduation. In some roles that is when people will be earning a lot more than peers in other areas, but how many poets or artists (or teachers, or nurses) earn much at the beginning of their working lives? It's a ludicrously flawed system, largely based on getting figures when people can still be contacted, and takes no account of lifetime earnings, even if they were the be all and end all, but it is used to decide which courses should close.

My opinions are very far removed from his, Glorianny. He had failed his exams twice and didn’t want to see me succeed. I have the utmost respect for those who work hard to get a better life from themselves. Determination is a quality which I greatly admire. But yes, I do question the ethics of those who study for a degree which they know will not lead to a career which enables them to repay their debt. I would never dream of taking on a debt which I couldn’t repay.

As regards criminal lawyers, my views are the same as those of the majority of my peers.