Grandchildren in charge

Cid24 Gentle Parenting is not permissive parenting.

My honest opinion is that a bit of 'Granny's house, Granny's rules', away from parents, might break the cycle of 8yo getting his own way by kicking, and 3yo watching 3am TV

I think Gentle Parenting” has a lot to answer for!

I think if your grandchildren have spoken to agencies who think they have ODD traits, then that means that you are expecting something of those children they can't manage. There is another condition known as PDA which is a form of Autism and that is extremely hard on parents. With either of these conditions parents are judged by others and have a really hard time. The two conditions are managed entirely differently so it is important to know which one you are dealing with.
It is rare for agencies to (particularly Social Services) to even consider either of these disorders so I think you have to listen to what the parents are telling you. Research it and see if you can understand the condition better.

I was an older parent, my Dd born when I was 42. I told her from being maube 7 or 8 that I would be far too old for teenage tantrums, so not to bother. I was so scared of being judged for having a 'naughty' child that I was probably a bit too strict, but it didn't do any harm. She would never have dared behave like this, and she has turned into a lovely successful young woman. I think some parents are too afraid of their children not liking them 🙄

Yes, my son thinks parenting is "hard work".
🤣
He says when you're weary it's hard to be firm and then harder still to follow through with the consequences.
He's right, of course.
You need to stay with the plan!

so why does only happen outside these confines
Laziness. Tough love is hard work.

Musicgirl I agree 100% with every word you've written 👍

I have tried to broach the subject to my son but got shut down very quickly.

That speaks volumes. He knows it's unacceptable and he knows it's their (the parents') fault.

If the children don't behave like that elsewhere, there's your answer.
Granny's house, granny's rules from now on.

Looking after well-behaved children, especially overnight, is hard work at that age!

My oldest son is autistic and went to a special school. We found we needed to be extra strict with him and have strong rules and boundaries. Of course, as with any other child, we sometimes had to pick our battles, but, in his early thirties, he now lives independently (with help) and I couldn't be prouder of him. I'm afraid Oppositional Defiant Disorder sounds like an excuse for a very naughty little boy to me and the reason he gets on well at school is because he has the rules and boundaries he is obviously desperately craving at school. Rules make children feel safe because they know exactly what is expected of them. It seems to be the in thing to claim the latest fashionable diagnosis as an excuse for poor discipline. Every other person seems to be getting diagnosed with ADHD at the moment. It is a very real thing and I have seen children and adults who definitely have it, but surely it is not that prevalent. One teacher described these children where parents were using possible ADHD as an excuse as Adults Don't Have Discipline. I am very sorry to read about your grandchildren. It is not their fault they are behaving this way. I would imagine that underneath are two very frightened children, who do not know where they stand. It must be very bewildering for them. It is time for their parents to begin to behave like parents.

Don't allow them to sleep over.

With no reports of issues from elsewhere, to me seems behaviour is all down to parents probably having taken the easy road and not set rules/ expectations in the early days. Kicking parent or anyone is a definite no, what will GS do next as he grows when his every wish isn't accommodated. You need to let DS know how you feel about the behaviour.

They are out of control. Don't have them to stay over and tell their parents why.

Ohmother I think you have made a good decision here- no overnights until they're older ( and less work!).
I'm intrigued by the eight year old who might have ODD but doesn't display these behaviours in school.

Thank you all sooooo much for your reassuring advice and suggestions. It doesn’t seem like it’s me being too harsh and misunderstanding the situation now.
I have tried to broach the subject to my son but got shut down very quickly. I suppose my next step is not to have them for overnighters together until they’re older.

There may be a medical reason for their behaviour and maybe not. Either way it sounds like it is all too much for you - solution, speak to the parents and explain you are becoming exhausted and can no longer provide care for your GC. I know how hard that will be because you recognize the parents need a break. However much as you love your family you owe it yourself and your other half to take care of your self . Whatever the reason you must not put your mental / emotional health at risk. Their behaviour sounds to be more than any GP should have to tolerate! Be brave.

Honestly, don’t you just love these new invented terms which pop up on a regular basis to describe a child who is simply disobedient?
‘Oppositional behaviour traits’ !

You couldn’t make it up could you, except someone has, and I don’t mean you, Ohmother.

I really struggle to understand why any parent would put up with their child kicking them. It should have been nipped in the bud as soon as it started.

Anyway, as a grandparent you have to tread carefully as any parenting advice from you is unlikely to go down well.

Sorry repeated myself like a loon in the first sentence.

My two and a half year old GS is two and a half, he has had his moments when he would tantrum if he didn’t get his way, but must say my daughter and SiL are blessed with common sense, they don’t stand for any nonsense, and only reward good behaviour. He is frequently told about how how his behaviour might upset others, recently he pushed a child at nursery and my daughter uses a sock puppet to enact this at home and show our GS how upset the other child would have been. He said sorry the next time he saw the child.
Have just been babysitting him because our daughter suffered a miscarriage and expected him to kick off a bit with all the upheaval of mummy being in hospital, but when we first got there he immediately said ‘mummy isn’t well so we have to give lots of cuddles.’
I wanted to cry but hugged him instead.
Though I do realise how hard it is for parents having to juggle work and childcare as well being exposed to all sorts of conflicting advice about childcare.
I suggest the OP gives up doing sleep overs and if they ask why tell them that the children’s behaviour is exhausting but doing a few hours during the day would be better.
The 8 year old might need to be assessed if his behaviour is violent towards his parents.
A very tricky problem.

I’m afraid ‘Oppositional behaviour traits’ did wryly amuse me. Once upon a time he’d just have been called a stroppy little bugger who needed a much firmer hand.

As for being taken down to watch TV in the night, I well remember helping out while dd was away for work, and Gds (maybe around 18/20 months at the time) waking in the small hours and crying. I found SiL (who worked full time) about to take him downstairs ‘to play’.

I firmly sent SiL back to bed, put Gds back in his cot and patted/sang him back to sleep, which didn’t take very long. But apparently the ‘taking downstairs to play’ had been a fairly regular thing.

If they don't remain consistent and "a team" as parents - then the children will be in charge - with or without medical issues.

Years ago Adele Faber wrote a book "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk” which may still be relevant - it was an easy read.
I'm sure there are better books now (and I'm sure it's dated) but it was one I recommended to people who really wanted to try to make changes.

Others with more recent parenting knowledge may have better ideas if your son and daughter-in-law really want to change things at home. I know the children may have medical problems but being constant is surely a good start.

This sort of thing is all too common. It is all too easy to blame the parents for being too lax but some are under a lot of pressure these days, especially if they both work and are tied in to large mortgages. I think many are just too physically and mentally exhausted to cope with the demands of child rearing.

I disapproved of my GC being allowed to stay up late etc but they are growing into polite and caring older children who are doing well at school so I sometimes wonder if it was us that got it all wrong!

I have learned to sit and ignore the things I don't approve of. I know I am loved and respected by them all and think that is more important.

eazybee

Two things.
No child should be allowed to kick a parent, or anyone else. Hold at arms' length until the tantrum stops.

No child should be brought down to watch television if he/she wakes during the night.Cuddles, reassurance and tucked up in bed, repeatedly, until it stops.Check for possible medical condition.
The fact they are no trouble, apparently, at school, shows this behaviour is not pervasive, but down to parents' over -tolerance.

Totally agree with eazybee.

The longer this behaviour continues, the worse the children will get, until they reach the point of no return and completely take over the running of the home.

Boundaries need to be set from an early age and that has clearly not happened as these children have no respect for parents or grandparents.

With regard to the disrupted sleep in the 3 yr old, a visit to the GP would be a smart move and hopefully it is not serious for the child.

Having the GC for a sleepover should be a pleasant experience not an exhausting challenge.

Two things.
No child should be allowed to kick a parent, or anyone else. Hold at arms' length until the tantrum stops.

No child should be brought down to watch television if he/she wakes during the night.Cuddles, reassurance and tucked up in bed, repeatedly, until it stops.Check for possible medical condition.
The fact they are no trouble, apparently, at school, shows this behaviour is not pervasive, but down to parents' over -tolerance.

I think that watching TV in the middle of the night would just exacerbate sleep problems and hyperactivity.. but surely a GP would be able to help with sleep apnea..
Perhaps just have them visiting during the day..