EHRC suggestion on toilet facilities

Although the guidance is in principle quite clear, the problem Jackiest alluded to is mentioned in the guidance,

"“The guidance states that in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological women) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities

For example, trans men could be excluded from women's facilities "where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance", the watchdog told the BBC.

The guidance adds: "Where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyw9qjeq8po

I wouldn’t say she should break the law.
Presumably, since she is proud enough to show off to the media, what she has done with her body, she would be happy to explain that she is in fact female, without resorting to violence like some TW do.

Jackiest

We are all thinking of trans women and saying they should use the men's toilet but how would we feel allowing trans men use the female toilet. How would you feel sharing a changing room with this person who is biologically female. Now goes under the name of Leo Macallan was originally Liz Macallan

i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/article32026511.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200e/0_I-came-out-as-a-trans-man-when-I-was-22-people-tell-me-I-look-like-Tom-Hardy.jpg

I wouldnt feel happy about it.

I am guessing Macadia is an auto correct for Macallan Apologies if I have that wrong.

Leo will I imaging feel very embarrassed as he will be aware of the discomfort he will cause in the female changing rooms but if the law says you have to use your biological sex rooms then he will have no option. If we say he should break the law so can others.

There is more than one side to this problem.

Barbadosbelle Yeah he looks the fragile type doesn’t he!

.

Macadia

Ummm. Let's think for a minute.......

Oh, yes, maybe because, quite obviously, she mightn't feel safe?!
.

We are all thinking of trans women and saying they should use the men's toilet but how would we feel allowing trans men use the female toilet. How would you feel sharing a changing room with this person who is biologically female. Now goes under the name of Leo Macallan was originally Liz Macallan

i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/article32026511.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200e/0_I-came-out-as-a-trans-man-when-I-was-22-people-tell-me-I-look-like-Tom-Hardy.jpg

People with disabilities fought very hard to have facilities that meet their needs, I think that would be for people with disabilities to make that decision.

They should make the disabled loos also for Trans as there unisex after all .
after I had an accident I used to use the disabled for awhile, and they were almost always vacant..
Sorted 👍

Thats what has happened in our local park - the accessible loo is now open to anyone. And they also built a family room (changing Babies etc) open to all.

Surely where there is an accessible loo, it could be used by anyone as it’s a locked cubicle?

SuperTinny

My take on this is if anyone can declare themselves a women then the unsavoury members of society may take the opportunity to use private/secluded areas to assault women.

Unfortunately it feels like the minority (those who have genuinely transitioned) will suffer because of the need to protect biological women's rights.

Whether men declare themselves trans (for the day for instance) or have genuinely transitioned it doesn't take away the fact they will nearly always be taller and have greater muscle mass, making them stronger.

I have no problem with those who have genuinely transitioned but do have concerns that by allowing trans women into secluded/private areas we could be opening ourselves up to abuse.

SuperTinny, your take, explained in each paragraph is just what others have been saying on GN for a long time.

What about lesbians who find the female body attractive?
I would find that very creepy.

Lesbians/gay aren't as creepy as that horribly homophobic comment. Jeez, I've seen it all now.

Women who identify as men don't offend in the same rate as men. Trans men are often housed in female spaces, so for example they are usually placed in female prisons because the risk in male prisons would be too great.

*uncomplicated

Wyllow3

I was just thinking that maybe these guidelines came out quickly and first because they are less complicated than some of the issues, and they wanted organisations and businesses to try and get onto provision as soon as possible.

The guidelines have been released so that trans people have toilets available to them. It's certainly not complicated. If trans women are men and trans men are women the trans men can use female spaces? How would anyone tell they were a trans man and a natal male? Makes it easier for men to violate female spaces, doesn't alleviate any perceived threat at all.

They obviously think the "toilet" system in some continental countries are a good bench mark - hole in the ground and a water pipe to flush and wipe. All ages, and both sexes in the queue.

My take on this is if anyone can declare themselves a women then the unsavoury members of society may take the opportunity to use private/secluded areas to assault women.

Unfortunately it feels like the minority (those who have genuinely transitioned) will suffer because of the need to protect biological women's rights.

Whether men declare themselves trans (for the day for instance) or have genuinely transitioned it doesn't take away the fact they will nearly always be taller and have greater muscle mass, making them stronger.

I have no problem with those who have genuinely transitioned but do have concerns that by allowing trans women into secluded/private areas we could be opening ourselves up to abuse.

Cold

Doodledog

nanna8

Doesn’t that already happen,though? I can’t think of any public facilities that don’t have unisex toilets as well as male and female. Not round here, anyway.

No, it doesn’t happen in older buildings which would require complex plumbing arrangements. In some cases (eg older universities) it’s taken ages to get women’s toilets, never mind extra ones for various genders.

New buildings do tend to have more modern arrangements but it would be a mammoth task to include ’gender’-based facilities across the piece. I don’t see the need, really. If you can pee standing up, use the urinals, if not, use a cubicle- but in either case use the one particular to your sex.

It can happen in older buildings. I worked in a building in Sweden where all toilets were accessible and separate rooms - ie you walk into a room that (should be) big enough for a wheelchair, you lock the door and the washbasin is in the room with you - the older part of the building was from 1651/1741.

Same arrangements in the other building that was built between 1300 and 1622 - I think the toilet had been a butlers pantry

I think the toilet had been a butlers pantry

And now we are going full-circle. Our town public toilet has been converted to 'bijou' accommodation (it was about the size of a butler's pantry).

... and that's another problem - what provisions there are are being sold off by councils to save money. Which doesn't help.

Doodledog

nanna8

Doesn’t that already happen,though? I can’t think of any public facilities that don’t have unisex toilets as well as male and female. Not round here, anyway.

No, it doesn’t happen in older buildings which would require complex plumbing arrangements. In some cases (eg older universities) it’s taken ages to get women’s toilets, never mind extra ones for various genders.

New buildings do tend to have more modern arrangements but it would be a mammoth task to include ’gender’-based facilities across the piece. I don’t see the need, really. If you can pee standing up, use the urinals, if not, use a cubicle- but in either case use the one particular to your sex.

It can happen in older buildings. I worked in a building in Sweden where all toilets were accessible and separate rooms - ie you walk into a room that (should be) big enough for a wheelchair, you lock the door and the washbasin is in the room with you - the older part of the building was from 1651/1741.

Same arrangements in the other building that was built between 1300 and 1622 - I think the toilet had been a butlers pantry

I was just thinking that maybe these guidelines came out quickly and first because they are less complicated than some of the issues, and they wanted organisations and businesses to try and get onto provision as soon as possible.

Lesbians and gays have waited a long time for the right to be allowed to prefer others of the same sex. Their choice didn’t harm anyone else, but they were harmed for making that choice.
They had to hide the truth.

It’s understandable that some trans have, as L&G had to do, hidden what they really are.

Now the actions of some TW and TRA have made it necessary to rule on the fact that only biological females are women and only biological males are men.

Lying about your sex is not at all the same thing as preferring the same sex.

Why is lying suddenly acceptable?

*as he wouldn't

Whitewavemark2

I do understand that it is more about lavatories, but it is all a bit of a nightmare imo.

What about lesbians who find the female body attractive?

I would find that very creepy.

What a vile homophobic statement! None of the lesbians I know would ever impose themselves on anybody. Reminds of a gay guy I worked with years ago who said the whole "backs to the wall" jibes in the men's showers were wasted as wouldn't, not even if they'd paid him!

I would only go in ladies loos. No unisex ones for me. I loved Ladies Only carriages on trains too.