Turning white characters black

Maybe that’s because we get our impressions of how people looked from film and tv though? And as long as heroes are white we will continue to see them as such, which is all the more reason to include more people of colour in roles where race doesn’t matter?

What are you saying Whitewavemark2? This discussion clearly isn’t about racism, which is in fact what you’ve bought (somewhat unhelpfully IMO) to the thread.

I do remember thinking at the casting of a black man as the husband of the Catherine Zeta Jones character in the new and awful version of The Darling Buds of May belied the fact that it would have been doubtful that a black man would have slipped into 1950s rural England with the ease that was shown in the one and only episode I saw. Race relations were no doubt like they are in parts of Eastern Europe just backward. Inter racial marriages would have been a rarity. Younger generations wouldn't necessarily understand that, because thankfully, dating, marrying a person from a different ethnicity is no longer a barrier and subsequent generations are very comfortable in that respect.

David Bowie who IMO was handsome, played Joseph Merrick on stage in LA in 1980 Doodledog by contorting his body and vocals; no prosthetics were used and it was an acclaimed performance.

LaCrepescule

What are you saying Whitewavemark2? This discussion clearly isn’t about racism, which is in fact what you’ve bought (somewhat unhelpfully IMO) to the thread.

I don’t see Wwm’s comment as suggesting that the discussion is about racism, but that skin colour is not usually important - it’s just one aspect of a person.

It depends on the purpose of the production surely. If it’s presented as a historical reinactment then it should be as historical accurate as possible.

If it’s presented as a drama then the physical appearance of the actors isnt so important unless it actually detracts.

I went to Cosi Fan Tutte a couple of weeks ago. One of the beautiful ladies was played by a trans singer who sang falsetto. Fabulous voice although they missed some of the low notes. But I’m afraid the heavy stomping across the stage and the imbedded masculine gestures completely detracted from the opera for me. It was a constant jarring.

Smileless2012

David Bowie who IMO was handsome, played Joseph Merrick on stage in LA in 1980 Doodledog by contorting his body and vocals; no prosthetics were used and it was an acclaimed performance.

I had no idea about that, but it sounds interesting. Bowie was very talented.

My point was more that without the contortions it couldn’t have worked though. Also, performances by actors of a different sex or colour from the traditional ones have been acclaimed too.

It depends on the purpose of the production surely. If it’s presented as a historical reinactment then it should be as historical accurate as possible.

If it’s presented as a drama then the physical appearance of the actors isnt so important unless it actually detracts.
This is how I see it. A documentary or teaching aid is one thing, and a drama another. The argument that children might assume that drama is somehow real doesn’t hold water for me. They are surprisingly sophisticated when it comes to understanding what is real. Are they supposed to believe that small country villages in middle England have a terrifying number of serial killers as residents, and that the local policeman solves them all with no damage to his mental health? . Is that ok, but heaven forfend that someone in the 50s could be an Indian vicar or a black doctor (or whatever)?

I like reality in plays. Othello should not be played by someone who doesn’t fit the ‘moor of Venice ‘ look anymore than Mary Queen of Scots should be played by someone from Zimbabwe. Nothing racist , just realism. Pretty sure a Zimbabwean female wouldn’t want to play an old British Queen,either.

It's not a question of heaven forbid would a doctor in a rural village in the 1950s be black or a vicar Indian, the latter made me smile because the village vicar where I live is Indian. It would be about the prevailing attitudes of that era, would the villagers be more enlightened than say inner city landlords who put up notices "no blacks, no Irish" Maybe they were. Where I used to live there was a large 18th century house on the banks of the Thames, a merchant's house, the merchant in question was one Ceasar Picton, a wealthy black man of that era, blue plaque outside. I always thought that was good to know.

Whitewavemark2

I long for the day when this sort of conversation never happens, because we no longer see colour, but just the person.

How good would that be?

I’m not sure what you mean.
You’d presumably apply “just seeing the person” that to every situation, colour, creed, disability, sex etc.
That would be a retrograde step for many, and no change for others.

Just as it is now,
one person or group “just seeing the person” would choose what they see as the “right” person and others would accuse them of having chosen the “wrong” person.

I wasn’t suggesting that you would be shocked by those things, Terribull (sorry if it came across that way) just that the idea that children (or adults for that matter) will be ‘confused’ by anything not slavishly accurate, when so much of what we watch requires real suspension of disbelief.

Doodledog ok

nanna8

I like reality in plays. Othello should not be played by someone who doesn’t fit the ‘moor of Venice ‘ look anymore than Mary Queen of Scots should be played by someone from Zimbabwe. Nothing racist , just realism. Pretty sure a Zimbabwean female wouldn’t want to play an old British Queen,either.

Yes. Although we now see “blacking up” of white actors as offensive, it was an acknowledgement of this is how the person ought to look.
If the Moor of Venice was now played by a white actor, when coloured actors are well able to play the part, it would be seen as wrong. If the cast of Roots was played by white slaves and black slave owners, it would be seen as wrong.

Well now, I’ve been toying with a re-setting of Othello for a little while now.

Suppose you re-cast him as white - and the other characters as say Indian and presented him as a kind of Indiana Jones Temple of Doom character, come to save the poor helpless Venetian with a swagger and a total insensitivity to the society he is in. And Desdemona was a princess that he seduces. And Cassio is the only other white man and Othello gives him promotion over the vastly competent but Indian Iago, who has actually done all the hard day to day slog in Othellos success.

I think it would work. I think our attitudes to racism today actually obscure a lot of what is in the dialogue of the play like Iago being passed over and Othello having affairs with other women.

A good story always works.
Remember the Asian "Bride and Prejudice" that worked so well because pride and prejudice are prevalent in all Societies.

That’s one of my best ever films😁

I wish they would re-show The No.1 Ladies Detective Agency.
Only the one series. I suppose it can't have sold well.

Boz

A good story always works.
Remember the Asian "Bride and Prejudice" that worked so well because pride and prejudice are prevalent in all Societies.

Exactly.

Boz

I wish they would re-show The No.1 Ladies Detective Agency.
Only the one series. I suppose it can't have sold well.

I don’t think they got the casting right there. The American actress who played Mma Ratmotse was just more America than Botswana. Not subtle enough.

Ramotswe

Don’t know why autocorrect doesn’t like that🙄

What about the musical Hamilton? The historical character's picture is on the 10-dollar bill,
I'm guessing that a lot of people who saw the musical think that this founding father of the American constitution was a black man.

Personally, I don't normally mind, but I must admit that I do hope that the next James Bond film portrays Bond as a white man, just as Ian Fleming wrote it. I'm not being racist here, I feel just as keenly about him not being female as I do about him being white.

Aveline

Sorry Doodledog I completely disagree. I'm with the OP on this. It's irritating to say the least and deeply patronising.

Why is it irritating and patronising? I honestly cant see why it is either.

I have recently re-read Wuthering Heights - and followed that by watching a few of the film or TV series adaptations.

In the more recent adaptations, Heathcliff has been played by an African American man.

Heathcliff's ethnicity is quite open to interpretation. I don't understand why African American is always the go to. He could have been played (on film) by many ethnic types e.g. Spanish, Indian

Here is a quote with quotes from the book:

Heathcliff is first described as a "dark-skinned gipsy" in appearance with "black eyes", as well as later being said to be "as white as the wall behind him" and "pale...with an expression of mortal hate." Mr Linton, the Earnshaws' neighbour, suggests that he might be "a little Lascar, or an American or Spanish castaway'

A lascar is a sailor from India or SE Asia.

I suppose a lot of older people always associate Heathcliff with Laurence Olivier.

Of all the adaptations I watched, I though the BBC one with Ralph Fiennes as Heathcliff was the best. It told the full story and didn't just focus on the 'romance' between Heathcliff and Cathy.