Controlling daughter in law regarding the death of her father

Interesting new post that didn't make me see the OP in a different light

I hope patients know you are not certified or have official educational training because health is a very dangerous subject - I wouldnt blame them if they choose a different assistant for themselves and their kids

Well, Smileless, one obvious reason might be that the OP’s visit, three days after the family’s final visit, didn’t show the family in a good light, but there may be less obvious reasons for their discomfort.
Who knows what goes on in peoples’ minds?

Maybe he was hoping to die at home. I still think you are too involved in a branch of the family that has nothing to do with you.

I hope you will respect whatever their wishes are for the funeral.

Well from what Mal has posted neither his wife or D appeared to be aware of the severity of his condition, not doubt due in part because he was keeping things from them.

As for her not seeing him for a few weeks and not being kept up to date with his condition, that does fit in with her d.i.l.'s need for control.

I don't think that she did do anything wrong when she went to visit him. She checked with the hospital that it was alright to do so and has said had she been told by his D and/or wife not to go, she wouldn't have.

I do find it very odd that neither his wife nor his D visited him again in the 3 days before he died, and are so upset that the OP went to see him after they had said their goodbyes.

Somehow I doubt that the OP’s post is ‘one last time’, or rather that she will revisit it.
And, from the list of horrendous symptoms the poor gentleman was displaying, I doubt that some ‘medical experience’ was necessary to infer that he was rather poorly. I also find it strange that she hadn’t seen this ‘very good friend’ for a few weeks, and hadn’t been kept informed as to his condition. This would make me think that perhaps he wasn’t such a good friend, or that she knew there would be resistance from the family.

Mal2

Please can I ask

How can you say that you gave a genuine apology when your "but" was an entire essay and you blame your DIL and her family still?

Also the "all my family and friends agree with me" is a big problem.

Your son and DIL will sense that you don't really think you did anything wrong.

I think you need some help to understand why there are issues between your son and DIL from a professional

I hope that given time your relationship with your d.i.l. will improve Mal and it's good to know that in the mean time you are seeing your son and GC.

You are right that it is for your d.i.l. to contact you when she is ready to do so and I hope that grief counselling will facilitate this .

Interesting posts from most of you. I decided, after some of you were curious were skeptical and had questions, I would post one last time…

Regarding an Apology… I have done that. I was genuine in my apology to her and if any of you believe that I was not, you probably live a very cynical life.
I told my son to relay to his wife that I would have never intentionally tried to hurt her. That I feel very bad and very sad.
She is my son’s wife and his loyalty is to her, as it should be, so I am very aware of the thin line I must walk.

For everyone who feels that I made this “all about me” …
I really do not know what to say… I needed to say my goodbyes, I needed closure and although I was not his “ family” my grief was/is real. I feel as though many of you believe that because I was not the immediate family, I should have put my needs and feelings aside. It truly did not occur to me that I needed permission from the family. If I truly thought that I needed to, I certainly would have done so.
For anyone who thinks that I was told I could not visit him, and went behind their backs, you are mistaken and you incorrectly read my first post.

Regarding my 35 years in the medical field…. at age 16 I started working for our family doctor as a medical assistant. He taught me well and when I left him I took a job with a pediatrician also as a medical assistant.
From there, I worked in many specialty practices as a medical assistant.
There was no requirement to have any degrees or certification when seeking employment in a physician’s office during my career and most doctors preferred to hire medical assistants because they didn’t have to pay as much as someone with certifications. It was much more involved than being in a “typing pool”. My last position in a physicians office, was as the office manager/ medical assistant of 2 offices and 26 employees. It was stressful and
ultimately was the reason I got out of the field.
So I did indeed, work in the medical field and I saw a lot of illnesses and a lot of sick and dying people and. ….. I learned a lot over the years…

The acute conditions of the FIL…when I visited them at their home his condition was quite obvious. I hadn’t seen him in a few weeks and was shocked when I saw him. He had severe edema in his legs, his feet were turning blue, he had uncontrollable diarrhea and his color was pale and a bit jaundiced. He had lost 25 pounds. I asked him if he had any sores on his legs and he showed me 2 large open wounds. He also told me that his wife was unaware of them and to keep it that way. It is my assumption only that with the severe diarrhea he was experiencing, fecal matter could have found it’s way to the open wounds on his legs and open wounds ….equals bacterial entry points…

I do not believe at all that I know “everything” about medicine but I do recognize when a person is gravely ill. Some of you actually believe that I was trying to be bossy and controlling by saying he should be admitted. I find this outrageous…I was genuinely afraid for him. What I do regret is not saying to his wife that we should have taken him to the hospital right then.
I will also say that my DIL has called me on several occasions describing some illness my grandchildren are experiencing… she wanted advice. She one time described “blisters” on her daughter’s body. I asked her to text me a picture and when I saw it I told her she had impetigo and to get her to the doctor for treatment as it is highly contagious. She called me and told me that yes, the doctor said it was exactly that…

I do not possess a sense of grandiose beliefs in myself. My point was to make clear that someone can achieve a lot and acquire many skills and still be uneducated.
All of those skills that I listed, have been used against me by my DIL and her mother. Her mother will make comments to me like “ I could never cook a meal like that, paint a picture like that” and on and on. Because she makes these comments in front of her daughter, my DIL comes to me and expresses her anger at me because “I made her mother feel inferior”… That kind of thinking is just plain nuts.

I grew up from very simple roots. We lived in a blue collar Irish Catholic neighborhood. My DIL and her family are all “educated” and think quite highly of themselves. I think it is fine to be proud of your status in life but I do take exception when it is used to degrade others who are less educated. I cannot change what they think , I can only change the way I react to them and I choose not to react.

I certainly know the grief my DIL is going through. I certainly understand how her grief is affecting her emotionally. I know that this will be a long process for her for at least a year after she experiences all the “firsts”.
The reason I told my son that the burden is on her to contact me is because he told me she is not ready to face me yet. I suggested a grief counselor and he told me they were starting the process.

Regarding moving on… I have moved on because that is what is healthy for me only. I know in time she will be able to as well because she will hopefully understand that her anger not only affects her but her children and my son as well. Anger produces cortisol and cortisol may have some bearing on getting cancer.
Because I said that I had moved on, I became a target, as some of you think that I have trivialized his death. That is not the case at all.

Regarding friends… As far as friends, I have many, most of them I have known for 40-50 years. All of my friends and family were shocked at my DIL’s anger with me. They too believe that I did not do anything that was out of the ordinary when I chose to visit the FIL. Unfortunately my DIL has been very rude to my siblings in the past so in all fairness, their first reaction was to blame her. I am only responsible for myself and I cannot control what they think is right or wrong. Some of you will find it hard to believe that person “like me” could absolutely have no friends and… you would be wrong…

Regarding relationships…I was married for 37 years. I chose to get a divorce when I learned my spouse was having an “inappropriate” relationship with his sister. No, this is not a soap opera… this is actually true and it nearly destroyed me and my son. Obviously I was in a long term marriage so for any of you who believe that no one could “put up with me” … you would be wrong
My son’s father is not involved with the family as he lives in another location.

My son being caught in the middle… it is sad. However, this is the one and only time he has mentioned it. That is because I am hyper-vigilant and make a point of never interfering. I give no advise, I do not butt in, in their lives at all.
I only give my opinion when asked.

Regarding being Selfish and Self Absorbed…Many of you agree with my DIL that I am selfish and self absorbed. I am not. My DIL believes (in my opinion only) that because I went to see her father, I monumentally disrupted her “plan” of which I had no knowledge, regarding how she orchestrated the way she believed her father should die. She is angry at herself, she is angry her father had cancer and she is angry that he passed away. Often times, people in her situation blame others. I am aware of this and hope one day that she will admit to herself that maybe her anger was a little displaced…

The day my son came to talk about this awful situation, I knew that he was torn. The first thing he did was come to me and hug me tight and told me that he loved me. I know my son very well and that is his way of saying “I’m sorry”.

He told me that his angry text to me was inappropriate. I was honest and told him that it hurt me deeply and he said he knew but did not realize just how deeply it hurt me.

Regarding my grandchildren… My DIL has not banned me from seeing my grandchildren as some of you think. My son is happy to bring them to me until his wife can get over her anger toward me. I am respecting her boundary of not seeing me and will do so until she is ready. Prior to this situation, we had found a happy medium in our relationship except the times that I “upset” her mother…

I do not know why my DIL and her mother decided not to stay with the FIL until he passed. I did not ask my son, but during our conversation he said this…” when he didn’t die that night, it became a real problem for us and added to the stress we were already under”. I was shaken by his comment and asked him to think about what he had just said. I asked him if their added stress was because they told their kids that he had died when in fact, he hadn’t. He said yes…He asked me how I would feel in his situation and I just looked at him and said I wouldn’t have said anything to them until he had actually passed…
My feelings about this are mixed. My DIL is highly organized, she plans out everything with written lists. She knows how to take control of any situation and to me these are all attributes. Unfortunately, in this situation it did not work out as she had planned and I believe ( my opinion only) that she was faced with feeling terrible and feeling angry, adding to the guilt she was already feeling.

What I do not understand is why they did not return to the hospital the 3 additional days that he lived. My inclination is that her father’s death was a well thought out plan by her and when it did not go according to script she got angry. I can only say (my opinion only) that her need to even have a plan in the first place, diminishes her father’s last days on this earth. I am an empath and believe that no one should die alone in a hospital bed…

This is not a “fake” post as many of you believe. But, If I were not living it, I would have doubts too.

Thank you to those who responded intelligently no matter how you feel.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I think you should have sent a message to your son and DIL before visiting to ask if it was OK.
Also as you went anyway I would not have told them that you visited if you suspected they wouldn't be happy about it.

A rather long ,confusing and very sad post if genuine .

First of all ,this unfortunate gentleman had a right to have any visitors -that he wished to see and not to be controlled by his immediate family.

Unless he expressed a desire to be alone -
they should have taken it in turns to sit with him so that he didn't die alone .

His death sounds distressing and prolonged .

The OP meant well and was genuinely in need of closure ,but she went completely against the wishes of his immediate family especially her DIL .

I can understand why they are angry with her especially in their time of grief .

I'm wondering if there are long term issues with his family.

I would send a well thought letter of apology to her DIL explaining that she was overcome with grief , but should not have intruded into their closure on their father's life .

They are upset, confused and angry and heated words have been exchanged .
It's a horrible situation .

Let things cool down and let time be a healer .

As well as ER and Casualty, I can remember Emergency Ward 10 LondonMzFitz…and Dixon of Dock Green, that valiant figure of truth and morality.

We do not know that the FIL was left alone for 4 days to be honest. There are enough holes in the OP's telling of things that it leaves me to wonder at the truthfulness of any of it. We should not judge anyone on what may/may not have happened in a situation that we did not witness ourselves. This could have been a request from FIL or the family could have kept info from the OP because she seems a bit overwhelming and they were trying to get through things and grieve.

FWIW, my own father died in April. He REFUSED to go to the hospital even for hospice care. He was determined to die at home and even yelled at me for trying to find hospice to go to the house. It was not until he fell while struggling to get around that he finally agreed to go to the hospital. He knew he would never return home and spent 4 days in hospice.

One should never discount the wants of the patient in situations such as this.

The OP was never told not to visit FIL, but she was told she could not visit the grandkids after saying that she "needed" to see them.

No matter what happened before, by OP's own admission she made things about her and her grief and then was adamant that she was "right". Sometimes being right is not better than being kind.

I don’t think this is necessarily a tall story at all. Certainly as a completely non medical person I spotted that my husband was seriously ill (with sepsis) and I didn’t need qualification for that. It was surprising that it took four days to be diagnosed though, although I guess an infection may have simply been brewing. Visiting the FIL was fine in my opinion as she had not been asked not to go. That’s a ridiculous source of anger. We didn’t want visitors outside our immediate family when my husband was dying, we couldn’t take other people’s upset and grief to be honest. I asked that my AC parents in law did not come over. My husband took many days to die, a hospice nurse told me that some people have a hard time being born and some have a hard time dying. Somehow that made sense. But to leave someone for four days without a family member close by is awful. I was with both of my parents during their last days, day and night with mum in hospital. Day and night with my husband at home. I could no more have left them alone than fly to the moon. So OP, I think you must be American, you seem to have a more blunt approach us Brits are not so used to. I think you didn’t do anything wrong beforehand but you have made the situation much worse by your rigid approach since. Back down, say sorry and get on with life. Be nice! We are all different and we mostly don’t go around considering ourselves above others. That’s not nice at all.

Callistemon You are absolutely right regarding his treatment after the transplant.
I had some major surgery for an ongoing problem when I was in my 30’s, once discharged I was given a list of warning signs to look out for and a number to call should I have any problems.
A bone marrow transplant is a huge undertaking, the aftercare should have been better managed.

I am however thinking this whole story is a wind up.

Delila

I wonder if the immediate family’s plan was to create an impression that this man had already died, for reasons known only to themselves, and not just in respect of the grandchildren, and an unexpected visit by the OP to find him still alive after their “last goodbyes” left them with a dilemma they hadn’t anticipated and a situation they might be called upon to explain.

Far-fetched, I know, but then so is the whole strange situation, and the OP might be in the dark about the reason behind the anger her visit has generated.

Chapter V

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I imagine the DIL and her mother were trying to get some sort of acceptance and closure in their minds. This would comfort them if they felt they had seen him for the last time, he had not uttered any words that they could cling to or remember. So anyone visiting after them may have "snatched" something from them that they hadn't seen, and they feel it was their right to be the only ones with the chance to witness it. So I can totally understand DIL being a little angry, i am afraid i would feel the same. You need to step back and show understanding and compassion to your poor DIL

I strongly suspect that Delila's suggestion may be correct.

I wonder if the immediate family’s plan was to create an impression that this man had already died, for reasons known only to themselves, and not just in respect of the grandchildren, and an unexpected visit by the OP to find him still alive after their “last goodbyes” left them with a dilemma they hadn’t anticipated and a situation they might be called upon to explain.

Far-fetched, I know, but then so is the whole strange situation, and the OP might be in the dark about the reason behind the anger her visit has generated.

Medical careers in the US are highly regulated. One can become a CNA with a certificate in about 6 months, but that qualifies you to do nothing more than take temperatures and clean bedpans.

Becoming a nurse would involve, at the very least, a 2 year degree for a RN. And that is a starter job. Most RNs look towards furthering their education with a BSN, a 4 year degree. Many BSNs are now continuing education as NP and PA. 6 - 8 years education.

No one would stay as a CNA for 35 years, making only minimum wage. Especially when many hospital systems will support and help pay for a nursing degree back during the nursing shortage of the early 2000s.

I am sorry, someone who spends 35 years in admin is not more qualified then the family in determining the severity of any medical condition at all.

This is all a load of *. To many holes in this story.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Caleo

The signs of acute illness are not a medical mystery and many lay persons can recognise them

Yes, I agree with that and many patients have experience of symptoms too.

I went to see father of my DIL who has been battling cancer after a bone marrow transplant.

Lots of questions here though.

How long ago had he had the bone marrow transplant?
Usually, after this happens, a patient is kept in isolation in hospital because their immune system will be at nil after the treatment required before a transplant is performed until the immune system recovers.
Presumably, if he was still ill with cancer some time later, the transplant had not worked.
Sepsis is a possibility if a patient's immune system is very low.
If the immune system is not working why were any visitors allowed?
The hospital should warn patients and their families of the symptoms and possibility of sepsis and the need to go to hospital urgently.

Just a few questions from a non-medical person.