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LucyGransnet (GNHQ) Thu 15-May-14 11:43:45

Money: don't join the "banana skin and grave brigade"

David Craig describes the underhand tactics of financial salespeople when approaching older customers, and the dangers of not talking about money with elderly relatives.

David Craig

Money: don't join the "grave brigade"

Posted on: Thu 15-May-14 11:43:45

(38 comments )

Lead photo

The salespeople that prey on elderly and vulnerable customers

Of all the horrors I found working in the financial services industry, the one that probably shocked me the most was how people in financial services treat those approaching or above retirement age. Financial services salespeople often call those close to retirement or already retired "the banana skin and grave brigade" because they have one foot on a financial banana skin, as they don't know much about savings and investments, and the other in the grave as they'll presumably soon be going on to a better place where they won't be needing their money any more.

I once even saw two supposed "financial advisers" (actually salespeople) working for a high street bank laughing and joking over the case of a pensioner who had lost about half his life savings, more than £100,000, because the pensioner placed the money in one fund the salesperson had recommended as being "safe" when in fact it put savers' money into extremely high risk and disastrous investments.

Many financial sellers specialise in the lucrative market of selling to retirees and those planning their retirement. They can have titles like "senior wealth advisers", "retirement planning advisers", "elder planning specialists" or even the rather scientific-sounding "financial gerontologist". Typically these sellers use what sales trainers call FaG selling (Fear and Greed) - they exploit older people's fear of living longer than their money lasts and their greed when offered seemingly attractive opportunities to increase their savings.

We need to overcome our reticence, ask our elderly friends and relatives about their money, find out who is chasing them to get hold of their cash


One set of dubious products typically sold and mis-sold to banana-skin-and-gravers are longer-term (five or more years) stock market investments with punitive penalties for early withdrawal. One company even specialised in selling these to people already in care homes. Naturally, quite a few customers died before their investments matured and their heirs found that, after deduction of early-withdrawal penalties, the investment companies returned considerably less than had been invested.

If older people don't have much ready cash available, that hasn't deterred eager financial sellers. Although some over 65s may have limited pensions and savings, many own their own homes making them what's called asset-rich but cash-poor. Seeing the potential of the asset-rich cash-poor market, financial firms have devised various schemes, often called "equity release", which promise to free up some or all of the value in their customers’ homes allowing them to live more comfortably until they die in return for the firms taking part or whole ownership of their customers' properties.

Interest rates on these equity release loans tend to be quite high – close to six or even seven per cent. So, thanks to the wonders of compound interest, sums that appear quite modest when originally borrowed can turn into massive debts. For example, someone aged sixty five borrowing the average equity release loan of £53,000 against a home worth £200,000 would find their debt had shot up to about £100,000 after ten years and £200,000 – the total value of their home – by the time they hit eighty five.

In Britain we're often uncomfortable talking about money with our parents and elderly relatives. We feel it might look like we're on a fishing expedition trying to find out how much we might get from them. But if we want to prevent those we know joining the "banana skin and grave brigade" we need to overcome our reticence, ask our elderly friends and relatives about their money, find out who is chasing them to get hold of their cash and warn them about the dangers of handing over their savings to commission-hungry salespeople.

David Craig is the author of Don't Buy It! Tricks and Traps Salespeople use and How to Beat Them (Thistle Publishing) which is available from Amazon.

By David Craig

Twitter: @Gransnet

Bellasnana Sun 01-Jun-14 06:56:57

FlicketyB if only we had had the benefit of your advice six years ago we might have avoided the massive mistake we made regarding investment. I am sure the agonizing over it is part of the reason my poor DH is so ill sad

mcem Sun 01-Jun-14 07:16:18

I agree with all you've said Flickety. In fact as I read your post, I was ticking off each point and am pleased to say I hit all your criteria! I'd just add one specific point. If you're considering buying an annuity with your pension pot, please look at all open market options and don't just go with your provider. This is less relevant since the recent change in rules about pension pots, but may still apply.

ps Sun 01-Jun-14 08:29:54

Sound advice from FlicketyB, just one small point - please be aware that once you have deposited your money with a bank it is effectively no longer yours it is theirs. Normally an academic point but in the case of a bank failure the bank can use 'your' money to re-capitalise itself and offer you shares in return. Those shares may prove to become worthless. Not too likely an event in UK but always possible I guess.
As for buying an annuity try to get away with claiming to be decrepit, on your last legs and a smoker - even if you are not. Dishonest I accept but you will get a better annuity rate, assuming evidence is not required, and I agree shop around, you do not need to use whoever your pension fund is with, they have had the benefit of your contributions for years and made a lot of money from them.
As for changes to the rules on pension pots I fear for those who will be tempted to take the cash if only for the reason that they will immediately lose up to 40% of it in income tax. Whats the betting a plethora of 'Pension investment products' suddenly appear in the market just before the new rules come into effect. Beware!

janeainsworth Sun 01-Jun-14 09:14:40

" try to get away with claiming to be decrepit, on your last legs and a smoker - even if you are not. Dishonest I accept but you will get a better annuity rate "
Do you advocate making dishonest insurance claims as well, ps shockshock
That is why the rest of us get lower rates for our annuities, and pay more for our insurance angry

gillybob Sun 01-Jun-14 09:34:02

My daughter inherited a few thousand pounds when she was 21. She placed it into a 5 year bond with Norwich union (who later became Aviva) after 5 years she ended up with virtually exactly what she had originally invested. We have demanded to know what Aviva have taken/used/charged over the years but so far they have been very reluctant to cough up the information. Does anyone know if there is any complaint procedure we could go through. Are they obliged to tell her what they have made from her money? I am clueless when it comes to this sort of thing.

janeainsworth Sun 01-Jun-14 09:37:06

Yes they are Gilly.
Charges should be clear and transparent.
Get advice from the Financial Conduct Authority.
www.fca.org.uk/site-info/contact

ps Sun 01-Jun-14 09:39:57

No I dont, have never done so and wouldnt but I am stating a fact. I really don't see what insurance claims have to do with purchasing an annuity. You will not get a lower rate because of a smoker claiming to be or not as annuities are a product of individual risk and as a consequence those not enjoying good health or living an unhealthy lifestyle will not be expected to have the life expectancy of those who do, hence the variance in rates. I could have increased my annuity by some 25% had I declared being a smoker, however I am not therefore didn't. I would not however sit in judgement of anyone who did as I would not know their reasons for doing so. I trust that answers your question.

janeainsworth Sun 01-Jun-14 10:05:53

No, not really, ps.
You said 'try to get away with claiming to be decrepit' - that sounded as though that was what you advised people to do, ie be dishonest.

Insurance claims don't have anything directly to do with annuities of course, but there is a parallel, if people make dishonest claims. Dishonest insurance claims make the cost of premiums go up for everyone else.

Annuities come out of huge funds held by insurance companies like Legal and General and Scottish Widows. The actuaries make their calculations based on what they are likely to pay out. If they are paying more out to people with reduced life expectancy because more people claim to have a reduced life expectantly, some of them following your advice and being dishonest, then there is less in the pot for other people.

gillybob Sun 01-Jun-14 11:26:35

Thank you jane I will look into it. I have to admit to feeling quite upset for my daughter as the money was all her dad had in the world when he died. She was very sensible and said straight away that if she didn't put it away safely she might waste it. A fat lot of good it did her as effectively given inflation etc. she ended up with less than the amount she started with. I am also very angry at the amount of money Aviva spent on their celebrity take over campaign, money that technically belonged to my daughter. angry

FlicketyB Sun 01-Jun-14 14:11:25

ps in the UK deposits up to £85,000 are protected if your deposit organisation goes bust. If you have more than that spread it around different deposit takers.

Any claim for an impaired annuity is very carefully checked and may depend on a medical. DH has high blood pressure and mild diabetes, this had no effect on his annuity rates. They would look for evidence, probably physical, if you claimed to be a heavy smoker.

nansoval Wed 04-Jun-14 09:11:33

to nanonthego - a jam jar under the bed I think!

FlicketyB Wed 04-Jun-14 19:06:24

But no interest no matter how small and always the danger of theft.

papaoscar Wed 04-Jun-14 20:01:38

Very good advice indeed, FlicketyB. Your cautionary words should be emblazoned everywhere. As soon as I hear the description 'financial advisor' I reach for my harpoon. Listened to the Queen's speech this morning and was horrified to hear that the government intend to loosen up people's access to their own pension deposits. Tempting people with their own money again. I bet the so called 'financial advisors' are rubbing their hands already in anticipation. Take care, folks, the wolves are circling the wagons. Stick to National Savings!

FlicketyB Wed 04-Jun-14 23:28:57

I think too many people just opt out of taking responsibility for educating themselves on basic money issues and then complain when they get caught in scams or bad investments.

There was someone in one of the Sunday papers a few weeks ago. A successful businessman; he had accumulated cash assets of several millions of pounds. He then, took advice from a company that recommended a series of high risk high return investments and when they failed he invested more in similar schemes to try and recoup his losses and of course lost that money as well. A man who has the skill and acumen to build up a successful business and accumulate several millions of pounds like this has no excuse for not using his common sense to tell him that to go blindly into a deal just because someone recommends it is stupid. He wouldn't have done such a deal in his business - or thrown good money after bad.