Censorship in libraries

In the 1970s l had to ask the librarian for a specific book which was handed to me in a bag. I've no idea if this still happens.

I used to teach English in an FE college and a West Indian woman made the college principal remove some Joseph Conrad novels from the library because she said they were racist. Heaven forbid she should have come across some Kipling poetry…

Many decades ago I had a weekend/holiday job in our local library. Even back then we had books that weren't out for general viewing but were kept on what we called the Poison Shelf, out of sight. They included a horrifically specific book on shark bites (someone must have ordered that) and Last Exit to Brooklyn, plus Fanny Hill and several others. They were available if anyone asked for them, as I imagine are the ones in question here. A bit of in-house censorship is nothing new and maybe OK so long as the books aren't actually banned.

I remember an elderly lady slamming a book down on the counter and saying the book was filthy and should be banned. Sex, sex, sex from start to finish. She was fuming. Then she smiled and winked at me and said "Got any more like that?"

Definitely no censorship. When I was at work (in a Public Library and later in a FE College Library) we took the view that people should be able to access any book.
Any other path leads to what's happening in America, where the Bible has been banned from school libraries in Utah (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65794363) for 'vulgarity and violence'..! 🙄

I wouldn’t necessarily ban any books, but I would censor swearing (also on TV). It spoils many books/programmes and is totally unnecessary (I dare say some people would disagree, but I find it insulting and it’s often aimed at women).

And being "on average smaller, weaker and less assertive/aggressive" they are relatively easy to subjugate. Religious dogma is just one of the weapons that can be turned into a way to separate and subjugate a group who could become rebellious - there is also the "keep them barefoot and pregnant" approach, and there is "their minds are more delicate, they should not be burdened with too much education"

I think you have missed the point of my original post, DrWatson, which was that at a time very recently when gender transition activists were trying to bully the entire infrastructure of British culture into censoring anything that looked at things from a different angle, the library went along with the demand to remove those books temporarily from the public shelves, in spite of protests from the staff. However, the atmosphere around the subject is now less fevered, and the action has been reversed. That should be praised, without penalising them for temporarily being influenced by a very powerful lobbying firm.

You also seem to have missed a lot of posts on Gransnet (and elsewhere) that make it quite clear that the entire faith of Islam is nothing like the way you portray it. There are some adherents to the faith who are innately sexists and misogynistic - but there are also some adherents to every faith (or none) who are equally controlling toward females and carry that into abuse. At the root of misogynistic abuse is resentment of the power of the half of humanity which is on average smaller, weaker and less assertive/aggressive then the male half, yet is also absolutely desirable and essential to them both physically and emotionally.

DrWatson

For Elegran -- well, sounds like Calderdale shouldn't have taken them into the back room anyway, depending on what that 'gender-critical' amounted to?

We now have fairly substantial minorities of Muslims living amongst us (more so in certain urban areas of course) - and that entire faith treats women as 3rd class citizens so that's OK? [for anyone who disputes that 3rd class, yes, indeed, it may even be 4th. That ludicrous dress code, arranged marriages, FGM, 'honour' killings -- all that lot still happen here, far more so in some countries -- and mosque segregation. Even the dear old CofE has managed to allow female priests for a while now, even a bish or 2?!]

... and that entire faith treats women as 3rd class citizens so that's OK? [for anyone who disputes that 3rd class, yes, indeed, it may even be 4th. That ludicrous dress code...

c8.alamy.com/comp/g3cb91/mayor-of-london-sadiq-khan-and-wife-saadiya-arrives-at-st-pauls-cathedral-g3cb91.jpg

- looks like Sadiq Khan didn't get the memo then, or forgot to tell his wife about it.
Don't know what they wear when they go clubbing - he and his wife like 80s music and R&B... and he does 'dad-dancing'

... but I did see a photo' of him and his wife (a lawyer) in jeans

i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/07/08/15/15775938-0-image-a-25_1562594881438.jpg

Who knew that "not all Muslims... etc"!

DrWatson

For Elegran -- well, sounds like Calderdale shouldn't have taken them into the back room anyway, depending on what that 'gender-critical' amounted to?

We now have fairly substantial minorities of Muslims living amongst us (more so in certain urban areas of course) - and that entire faith treats women as 3rd class citizens so that's OK? [for anyone who disputes that 3rd class, yes, indeed, it may even be 4th. That ludicrous dress code, arranged marriages, FGM, 'honour' killings -- all that lot still happen here, far more so in some countries -- and mosque segregation. Even the dear old CofE has managed to allow female priests for a while now, even a bish or 2?!]

Do you have a link Dr Watson? Honour killings and FGM are not Islamic practice as far as I know.

islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/4965/

www.reviewofreligions.org/33788/is-female-genital-mutilation-an-islamic-practice/

I agree that librarians should not simply remove a book from the open shelves of the library shelves because of a complaint from one or two members of the public.

Any book that the library has bought has presumably been judged on its merits, and I assume that public libraries have guide-lines and standards they adhere to.

However, there are border-line cases where a book could be regarded as literature by one set of people and pornography by others. This was the case formerly with Fanny Hill and Lady Chatterly's Lover and under the Indecent Publications Act of the day, or whatever it was it was called, these could neither be advertised openly or lent from libraries.

And what do we do with Hitler's Mein Kampf - regard it as history, or as racist propaganda?

There must be millions of other books that fall into two or more categories depending on points of view.

Yes, adults should be able to read two sides of every discussion and evaluate, but what about children? Nowadays they are not banned from borrowing books from the adult sections, are they?

Any librarians willing to comment on what the law actually says with regards to which books are readily accessible in a public library?

My DDs joined the children's library before they were even toddlers. One book I borrowed for DD2 when an oldish toddler had a story about a boy who did all sorts of naughty things. Inspired by this she told us while we were eating a meal that she had put a sweetcorn from her plate up her nose. We didn't entirely believe her but were sufficiently concerned to go to A&E (knowing her it was possibly true!). Just as well, a sweetcorn was extricated. I mentioned it at the library and the book was taken off the shelves.

For Elegran -- well, sounds like Calderdale shouldn't have taken them into the back room anyway, depending on what that 'gender-critical' amounted to?

We now have fairly substantial minorities of Muslims living amongst us (more so in certain urban areas of course) - and that entire faith treats women as 3rd class citizens so that's OK? [for anyone who disputes that 3rd class, yes, indeed, it may even be 4th. That ludicrous dress code, arranged marriages, FGM, 'honour' killings -- all that lot still happen here, far more so in some countries -- and mosque segregation. Even the dear old CofE has managed to allow female priests for a while now, even a bish or 2?!]

This is quite a difficult one. In principle I agree there should be no censorship but in practise, I am less sure. A little while ago there was a book about bringing your children up and it promoted corporal punishment with something like a ruler from as young as 6 months old. Whilst that is abhorrent to me, I could read it and be horrified so would never act upon that advice. Unfortunately there are other parents who might be tempted to follow that advice. Where do you draw the line?

As a former librarian I would say it's not the job of library staff to ban books. I have been asked to take a book from the shelves as someone found it offensive. I told them that others have read the book and it will stay on the shelves.

Galaxy

Who gets to decide what is acceptable. Usually the very last people in the world you would want to decide.

... quite.

I don't pretend to know where the line should be drawn.

It would be ideal if we could challenge every untruth, 'frightening' ideology, bigotry, etc, and expose it for what it is. But it doesn't work like that, does it?

Banning books is a danger to democracy - but there are also some who do not believe in democracy either and would destroy it if they could - should they be given a platform?

I don't know the answers.

Who gets to decide what is acceptable. Usually the very last people in the world you would want to decide.

Glorianny

Holocaust denial books are perfectly legal in this country and the US although they are banned in other countries. They are freely available to buy on Amazon. I'm not sure libraries should stock them. www.holocaustremembrance.com/news-archive/amazon-called-remove-holocaust-denial-books

Holocaust deniers - from the little - very unpalatable - amount I've read about them (one David Irving in particular) are basically anti-Semitic and court and incite extremism and violence. And that 'war on history' is a war on Democracy. surely?

I would say that literature falls within the 'incitement' to hatred... and inevitably, violence.

It could be said banning the books from libraries is banning free-speech - but we all know that free-speech has its limits.

I haven't read any of this literature (and don't intend to) - but I'm guessing it's not an impartial, reasoned 'critique' of that part of history...

Holocaust denial books are perfectly legal in this country and the US although they are banned in other countries. They are freely available to buy on Amazon. I'm not sure libraries should stock them. www.holocaustremembrance.com/news-archive/amazon-called-remove-holocaust-denial-books

Rosie51

Elegran One accidental side effect of publishing a FB link to the review is that we now know the titles of six books that could make interesting reading.

Indeed, I've read three of the titles, so may well look at the three I haven't read.

If a book may be lawfully sold in the UK then I do not agree with a library effectively banning it.

If a book may be lawfully sold in the UK then I do not agree with a library effectively banning it.

This, absolutely.

If the 'gender-critical' books' narratives breaks the law, that's one thing - otherwise it's simply censorship being attempted by those who want to silence anyone who doesn't agree wth them or their belief(s).

I'd also like to question the very description, "gender-critical". I've been labelled as such. But - I'm not, unlike the Holocaust deniers, denying their existence nor their rights, but questioning the impact of their belief on others, and that's completely different.

... and who would be the arbiter of which books were banned?

We need to debate views we don't agree with, not silence those who hold them.

Certainly not. I can throw books away that I dislike. But please always freedom of speech.

Very interesting interview with Jodie Picault. A small group of people being able to ban a number of books because the books did not agree with their own view of how the world should be.
Particularly that it was not violence that they objected to, but sex.

Another in the 'no censorship' camp.

I accept that there could be age limits on access to some books, and other subjects Libraries do not buy, pornography, for example. But censorship, banning books on one side of an argument, but not those putting the alternative view is totally unacceptable.

As for

I'm in the No Censorship camp too, however repugnant I might find some books.

Thank you Dinahmo for the link. I watched it in horror. Jodi Piccoult is right- we need to be vigilant. What happens in America could be here soon.
Banning books is quite absurd in the time of the Internet. If you want to read holocaust deniers, or Mein Kampf you can access it in minutes, to say nothing of pornography, from your phone or tablet.