How to pay for care?

Hi mrsmop

I agree with what you are saying.
The house I now own was built up through the efforts of my great grandparents, grandparents, my parents and to some extent myself.
My mother realised it could be taken for nursing home fees so that is why they split the house into tenants in common and I inherited half of the house when my mother passed away so at least half was protected.
As it happens I was later widowed and moved in with my father as a half owner and we knew the council could not touch the house as I was an owner occupier.
Happily my father never went into care and I have now inherited his half as well.
I do have a friend and his father had to go into care with dementia. He was widowed and living with his father as a half owner of the house which he inherited from his mother.
The social worker told him the house would have to be sold and the proceeds divided to pay for his fathers care.
He knew that was not legally correct and basically told the social worker to take a running jump.
He then consulted a solicitor and found because the father had attacked 2 nurses and a hospital visitor he had behaviour problems and as it was a health issue the NHS had to pay the care home fees.
The father lived for another 2 years and the son inherited all of the fathers savings, the house and his father's pensions for those 2 years.
Oddly enough he even got his father's heating allowance,

Frank

My concern is about the lack of monitoring of care in private homes - they are virtually all private homes now.

If you are paying for good quality care it is not so bad as being forced to use your savings to pay for poor quality care. There should be no poor quality care of the elderly in a civilized society.

Two families both earning the same wage: Couple A carefully budgeted throughout their lives and lived modestly just so that they could save a few pounds each month to have a financial cushion with which to help their children should they need it or to have a more comfortable retirement. Their savings would then preclude them from help with care fees. Couple B spent every penny as they went along on anything that took their fancy and finished up with no savings at all. They would then qualify for state help. How can this be fair?

Hi york46

What I object to is Social Services withold information and try to make people pay when they are under no legal obligation to do so.
See my thread dd 13 January 20:06:57.

Frank

Huntref - I fully agree!

And me,
Also the shortage of OTs who can enable people to live unaided in their own houses would in fact be very cost effective!
Things like tipping kettles
Urine bottles
Handles
Stair lifts
Helping hands
Dressing aids
Stair lifts
Trollies etc
Can help the disabled to become more independant

Just been with a friend to the local hospital. His father has dementia and has got to go into care. I was asked to sit in on the father's assessment.
My friend owns the house which is 4 bedroom detached and his father moved in about 10 years ago after his mother passed away and my friend cared for his father for the last 5 years.
His father lived in a council house when his mother was alive.
My friend has never been married so I am not sure why he purchased such a large house
The social worker sugested my friend downsized his house to pay for his fathers care even though the father has no title to it.
I did tell the social worker to take a running jump and stated we will see a solicitor if the father does not get NHS funding as he has serious behaviour problems.
I think if this is the thanks the offspring gets for looking after a parent in his home for 6 years they will soon not bother if they are told to sell it just because the parent lived there.

Frank

Have a look at the article on this on mygeingparent.com as it's really helpful http://www.myageingparent.com/care-home-fees-and-protecting-your-home/

The govt. has proposed a cap of £75,000 on long term social care costs. So, if you have, say, assets worth £300,00, you'll have £225,000 to leave to your children/grandchildren, whereas if you have assets worth £80,000 you'll only have £5,000 to bequeath. This idea therefore seems to disproportionately benefit the better off.

It seems equally unfair that people who are unfortunate enough to need long term social care are the only ones that will pay. Surely, the cost for other social provisions is paid for by the tax system, irrespective of whether you use the provision or not - people who don't have children still contribute, through taxation, to the education system.

The problem is, many people are already struggling, and a raise in income tax is not feasible.

So, although it's not popular with a lot of homeowners (and speaking as one myself), why not lower the ceiling for payment of inheritance tax? I think at the moment Inheritance Tax is only payable above £325,00 (double that amount for a couple). Surely that is a large amount of money to go untaxed? And the Conservatives' long term aim is to actually increase the non-taxable amount.

Eloethan, if only that was true. The government contribution is only towards the care costs, not towards what is described as hotel or boarding costs. The example I have given on another thread is a relative of mine in care and paying £800 a week to her excellent care home. Her weekly care costs, which will govern how soon this £75,000 is reached, will be capped at the maximum amount her county is prepared to pay a care home for all aspects of care for someone who cannot self fund, which is currently £450 a week. Even if half the £450 is allocated to her physical care, washing, dressing, supervision, she will only be able to claim £225 a week towards her personal care. Personally I think the personal care cost will be assessed as lower than that.

She has now been in care for 4 years. 4.5 x 52 x £225 = £56, 650. She is still nearly £20,000 short of reaching the magic £75,000 that means the state would pick up her care costs. She will however, while she still has funds. need to pay the remainder of her care home fees, about £575 a week. In the meanwhile she has paid out nearly £175,000 for her care home and will still have to pay fro all her care for at least the next 18 months before she would qualify for financial help under the scheme announced by the government

FlicketyB - What a rotten situation - I don't know what the answer is. It seems unfair that people who need care are having to bear so much of the cost themselves, whereas those who are fortunate enough not to find themselves in this situation can do whatever they like with however much money/assets they've got. Hence my comment re inheritance tax.

Personally, I think all long term care should be free or at least heavily subsidised but, without increased revenue from somewhere, I don't know if this is possible.

Even if all care costs were paid, it would only be at the maximum rate set by government and following assessment by Social Services and it would, as now, only cover a minimal level of care for those most seriously disabled.

I am thankful that we have assets enough to pay for what care we want when, we eventually need it. I would rather be self-financing and have complete control over my care and see any money that may subsidise me go instead to give more care to those who lack the assets to pay it .

You are probably right, but I would be very sad not to leave at least a reasonable amount to help out my children.

Yes, Eloethan, I agree. I hope enough will be left to help DC in retirement and DGC as they start life, but generally the children of house owners are more likelyto have benefited from their education, state or private, have gone to unviersity and/or to have better jobs and made their own way in the world than children from less advantaged homes and, as I have said before I do not want taxpayers poorer than I and not owning a house to have to subsidise my care when I have assets enough to pay for myself.

Hi Eloethan

My father passed away early in 2012.
I was widowed in 2003 and we lived together as my mother had passed away.
My mother left me half of the house partly to avoid inheritance tax and also because she did not want her half of the house to go to a possible future wife.
The house is worth about £500,000 and no inheritance tax was payable as Dad had little money in cash terms.
As we had been living together for so long I had spent at least £70,000 on the house at least £50,000 on Dad personally so my real inheritance was only about £380,000.
If the government suddenly lowered the inheritance tax threshold overnight to say £300,000 how would this be taken in to account? as I don't think most offspring in my situation would have kept records which could be proved.

Frank

It seems unfair that people who need care are having to bear so much of the cost themselves, whereas those who are fortunate enough not to find themselves in this situation can do whatever they like with however much money/assets they've got.

Eloethan It would seem unfair that increased inheritance tax should also fall on those who care for an elderly relative, sometimes, for many years. It might be counter-productive and actively discourage a son/daughter from taking on such a demanding role.

Hi absent

I agree with what you are saying.
Where I think it is wrong is a son / daughter could have cared for the parent for say 10 years and may have not been able to work as a result.
If say the parent owns a modest house worth say £160,000 with little other money and the parent has to go in to care for say 4 years most of that money will be used to pay for the care and the son or daughter would inherit almost nothing.
In that sort of situation the son / daughter would be no better off than if they had just walked away from the situation at the start and the parent would have had to have gone in to care for 14 years.

Frank

My sons have told me that they aren't concerned with inheriting anything from me. Naturally I hope there will be something left but it is a comfort to me that they are well established enough not to rely on future prospects.

Why do people want something for nothing? The only way to raise money to pay for services is to tax people. You get the services you deserve.
Low tax, poor services
It's always 'Me, me, me'.

Hi Orca

The hard fact of life is people only think of themselves.
I managed to care for my father at home as his problems were only physical.
I inherited half of my parents house when my mother passed away, sold my house as I was widowed and went to live with my father.
If he had needed care by law I could have not be forced to sell our jointly owned property and I would have not done so as I am an owner occupier.
Social workers do try to persuade anybody in my situation to sell but they can do nothing about it if the son / daughter refuses.

Frank

That's not a fact Frank that's an opinion. You are just confirming my own opinion that 'male logic' is just a myth!

Male logic
A wife asks her husband, "Could you please go shopping for me and buy one carton of milk, and if they have eggs, get 6."
A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk. The wife asks him, "Why the hell did you buy 6 cartons of milk?"

He replied, "They had eggs."

orca

Hi Orca

The problem is nobody has given any consideration to our family so why should we care about anybody else?.

Frank

HUNTERF Your life and outlook must be terribly, terribly sad. Is there nothing you can do to make it happier and better? Does all your family feel so bleak and unvalued?