Junior doctors strike

Contributing to the cost of training doctors and other health professionals seems a good investment to me

Interesting Louella12. So surely if the country has invested so much in their training the least they could expect is an undertaking to stay in UK for a minimum number of years (5?) or pay back their training costs.

Iam64

Doctors pay for their trainibg.

Decent pensions and terms and conditions have previously been something public servants had. They were paid less than equivalent in the private sector.
These terms and conditions have been eroded. Contributions to pension increased and pensions decreased
We either invest in public services like other Northern European countries and have more stable productive communities like they go, or we continue believing thr nonsense this government spouts

Doctors don't pay for all their training.

Personal Social Services Research Unit (PSSRU) at the University of Kent produces estimates for the cost of training different kinds of doctors. The 2022 edition of these estimates suggests that the total cost of training someone until they finish medical school is £244,730.

This goes up to half a million to train the more senior medics

Sazzl my blood pressure is normally pretty good but I'm afraid your post has sent it through the roof. When all these greedy doctors throw the towel in with the NHS and clear off to the private sector it won't just be lack of care due to strikes that you have to deal with. You will be paying for all your medical treatment and we will end up like the USA. I can't believe your entitled attitude, you sound like you'd like to have them horse whipped for having the audacity to strike. Be careful what you wish for.

Excellent post Mirren.
I find the attitude of many people towards the doctors shocking.
I suppose it comes out of a lack of understanding and self interest.

Mirren - thank you

I'm a retired doctor and mum to a daughter who a GP.
Technically, neither of us is a " junior doctor ".
However, I don't think many understand that " junior doctor " refers to any doctor who has not yet attained either a Consultant post or completed their GP training.
This means they could have been working as a qualified doctor for many years, on the required training schemes .They are not kids just out of uni.
Many are extremely well qualified adults who carry the bulk of the NHS work.
Until you have experienced the training of a doctor, or the working hours and conditions you have no idea how difficult it all is.
We are almost all people who care , who have studied, trained , worked really, really hard, given up much of our youth to do this job . We care about the patients and how the NHS is being destroyed .
The pay for junior doctors was never equitable with other professionals. The government has always relied on the good will of us all.
However, nowadays, the pay for all the hours of gruelling, emotionally and physically draining work , which is often like no other job you can imagine, has been devalued to the level of that earned by a dog walker!
Please, next time you either visit your Doctor, please try to imagine actually doing the job .
I really do promise you won't have a clue what it involves and the toll it takes .....
Please, if you want doctors and an NHS in the future, support this strike.
The government cannot be allowed to win. Their plan is privatisation by stealth and then we,all lose

Doctors pensions have been reduced. One of the unforseen consequences of this is that established and experienced doctors who are on the old scheme will not move from one NHS (say England to Scotland or Wales) to another, because in doing so they have to move to the new pension scheme. It costs them thousands.

Doctors pay for their trainibg.

Decent pensions and terms and conditions have previously been something public servants had. They were paid less than equivalent in the private sector.
These terms and conditions have been eroded. Contributions to pension increased and pensions decreased
We either invest in public services like other Northern European countries and have more stable productive communities like they go, or we continue believing thr nonsense this government spouts

Confused by this discussion its seems to indicate we are training Doctors and they then leave to work abroad which seems wrong, I then hope that they do not receive a pension from the UK.
Why has someone in government not brought up reducing the Doctors pension contributions so their pay can be increased?

sazz1

And all those agreeing with the strikes I hope none of you suffer a fall and break a hip leg or arm requiring urgent surgery and have to lie in pain for 14 days because of these strikes. You might feel differently then.

My OH did suffer a fall - a bad one - and had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance.

Not because anyone in the NHS was on strike, but because that's how bad things are in the NHS after 13 years of Tory government.

A government that could if it wanted to, enter into serious talks with the doctors, showing a willingness to really deal with the problem of, not just pay, but working conditions also. Some doctors have indicated they would be willing to downgrade their demand if they believed the government was genuinely determined to tackle the issue.

What the government are doing is just allowing the issue to develop so it can blame the doctors for the appalling state of the NHS. A plan that obviously works with those like you.

As for punishing them by decreasing their pay... seriously?

When the NHS disintegrates to the point where you start having to pay for appointments and treatments - you might feel differently then. You might wish that the government had with good faith entered into discussions, instead of using it as a political football.

Casdon

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m not trying to equate one with the other. Simply pointing out that many people have to work on Christmas Day. Of course solicitors’ responsibilities are very different from doctors’ - but if you b*gger up a multi million pound deal that can be the end of your career, just as if you make a fatal mistake with a patient.

Totally different though, a doctor can kill somebody if they make a mistake, as well as endangering their career. That is the hugest responsibility a person can have.

There are others though.
Airline pilot? Train driver? Cruise ship captain? Our lives are in many hands when you think about it.

sazz1, in the past four weeks my NHS investigation/treatments involved - a two week referral. The investigation and further examinations resulted in me being down graded from 2 week rule to urgent. I had the necessary colonoscopy 10 days later at an additional Saturday clinic put on to ensure 2 week/urgent patients were seen. Staff were without exception skilled and with good patient skills.

My cardiology annual review was positive but my consultant arranged an update echocardiogram to make sure the meds I take are still the right ones. That took place within 3 weeks.

My GP diagnosed inguinal hernia which he wasn’t worried about but referred me to the surgeon. My GP warned me it could be a long wait. I was seen 3 weeks later at our local private hospital under the NHS.

I feel very fortunate and also confident that the nhs is functioning because of its dedicated workforce with no thanks to this awful government

The problem of public sector pay is that it's a punch bag for govt spending. If doctors take 6 years to train, how on earth will they know, when they start, whether pay will have kept pace with inflation by the time they've qualified? Isn't that exactly what these strikes are about? Pay has diminished over 30% since 2010.
Obviously some compromise has to be reached, but offering 7% when they're asking for 30%+, is the start of the compromise by upping one and lowering the other.
Btw the strikes have cost many millions, which could have been put in the pay pot, months ago.

Above for Glorianny

The doctors were on strike for three days so the 14 days isn't anything to do with it.
industrial action by junior doctors is planned to take place, starting from 7am on Wednesday 20 December until 7am on Saturday 23 December 2023
Severe understaffing could be a cause. Which is why we should support the strikes..

sazz1

My niece did in a Bristol hospital Mine was a genuine post see above. She posted every day from her hospital bed. I didn't lie.

Urgent surgery is just that -urgent surgery. It is done asap. Some surgery cannot be done immediately. You didn't post about a single incident. You said any hip, leg or arm fracture-I assume your niece hadn't broken all three???
Some fracture surgery requires that the swelling subside before it can proceed.

My niece did in a Bristol hospital Mine was a genuine post see above. She posted every day from her hospital bed. I didn't lie.

sazz1

And all those agreeing with the strikes I hope none of you suffer a fall and break a hip leg or arm requiring urgent surgery and have to lie in pain for 14 days because of these strikes. You might feel differently then.

You actually imagine that those of us who support the doctors have never thought of that! And still support the strike for the greater good?

sazz1

And all those agreeing with the strikes I hope none of you suffer a fall and break a hip leg or arm requiring urgent surgery and have to lie in pain for 14 days because of these strikes. You might feel differently then.

No one will lie in pain for 14 days. Operations are happening. My DIL had an accident which needed minor surgery she was well looked after. She's going back to the hospital after Christmas.
Junior doctors deserve decent pay and working hours.

And all those agreeing with the strikes I hope none of you suffer a fall and break a hip leg or arm requiring urgent surgery and have to lie in pain for 14 days because of these strikes. You might feel differently then.

We are already in trouble because we don’t train enough, we over work and under pay. No wonder so many young doctors go abroad for better salary and terms and conditions
Add to that the contempt which some people express when discussing this strike and expect to lose more.

Medicine really isn’t ‘just ‘ a job but that doesn’t mean those employed in the nhs should be treated so badly

I'm absolutely disgusted with all the doctors including consultants for striking. There's not one medical student that isn't aware of the salary of a junior doctor before qualifying. You accept the rate of pay or take a different career. Many people will die or suffer from delayed treatment because of them. My neice suffered for 14 days with an urgent condition requiring immediate surgery on a shattered knee. 14 days of terrible pain on morphine lying in a hospital bed. Nobody available to operate All on strike. Cancer patients having delayed treatment. The government should reduce their salary not increase it as punishment.

Iam64

My dog Walker charges £17.50 for walking one dog, £15 an hour if she walks 3 or 4 together. She’s responsible, we have other so called ‘professional’ dog walkers who do group walks of 5 - 8 dogs at £12-15 an hour, I expect walkers in more wealthy areas charge more
Cleaners - £20 an hour.

The industrial action could be settled relatively easily if we had a government that was committed to maintaining and modernising our nhs. Instead, we have one that wants it privatised. They’ve successfully wrecked dentistry and social care by privatisation.

Yes, quite.

I pay my cleaning lady £17.50 an hour - going up to £18 in the new year. Admittedly, she goes above and beyond basic cleaning. She is also a carer for another 'client' and is paid in the region of £20 per hour.

Junior doctors (a misleading title if ever there was one) are looking at what they call pay 'restoration', which is not really the same as a pay rise.

Lucy Dunn - a qualified doctor and social media editor for The Spectator, believes that if the government entered into serious pay negotiations, doctors would settle for less.

The old idiom, where there is a will, there is a way, is true here. I don't believe the government have a strong determination to overcome the obstacles because at heart they are not committed to state-funded healthcare, and the only thing that is holding them back from 'full-on' privatisation is the knowledge that there would be very strong resistance from a large section of the public and they would lose votes because of it.

My dog Walker charges £17.50 for walking one dog, £15 an hour if she walks 3 or 4 together. She’s responsible, we have other so called ‘professional’ dog walkers who do group walks of 5 - 8 dogs at £12-15 an hour, I expect walkers in more wealthy areas charge more
Cleaners - £20 an hour.

The industrial action could be settled relatively easily if we had a government that was committed to maintaining and modernising our nhs. Instead, we have one that wants it privatised. They’ve successfully wrecked dentistry and social care by privatisation.