Junior doctors strike

PS I don't think the newly qualified doctors are 'paid fortunes'!

Bottom line is that better workforce planning should have been instigated at least 10 years ago. More nurses and doctors in training and obliged to stay in UK for eg a minimum of five years post qualification.
If there aren't enough actual doctors, paying fortunes for the ones we have got isn't going to somehow create more.

This is from the IMF
'Capitalism is often thought of as an economic system in which ... demand and supply freely set prices in markets in a way that can serve the best interests of society.'
I've never understood why supply and demand doesn't work for public sector employees. We are desperately short of new doctors in UK, and we're hemorrhaging the ones we've got, so pay them the going rate.

My great nephew is a junior doctor. A family member posted a supermarket job at £15+ an hour and he commented that's more than he gets paid. His career path started at school where he took extra maths etc to make sure he got the grades for uni. It takes a lot of work to become a doctor and that continues as someone has said. Honestly, if we don't value and respect junior doctors, it's no wonder they go on strike. We shouldn't be concentrating on the % they are asking for but the actual amount of money they are taking home to afford to live. Someone who stacks shelves (and I have done it) should not be paid the same or more than someone who has your life in thier hands. You don't go home worrying about whether you have put the beans on the peas shelf but doctors never really switch off, especially junior doctors still learning their craft. I support the strikes and believe the government should give them a much better deal.

Cornishgreenhousethank goodness for people like your daughter who are there when we need them. Every word you have written is correct. I know this because I also have a daughter who is a doctor, who works three jobs, one as a full time GP, another where she does weekly shifts at the ED in the hospital, often returning home late at night, and a third for a private clinic seeing menopausal women who are suffering and need medical help. This is done online in her own time. I see it from both sides because I also have a son who is a barrister and another son who is a financial director. My sons both earn far more money than my daughter. It is a fact. They don’t work harder or have more skills, they just work privately. The barrister is of course self employed as are all barristers. The other son works for a company, and he moved for more responsibility and money as and when he felt it appropriate. All three went to university. One for three years, another for four years, and my daughter, the doctor, for six years. All three went on to do further study and exams, all of which had to be paid for. The difference, the barrister was given a grant to cover his Bar School fees, and a generous allowance to cover his pupillage. The other son was given days off as study leave and his exams were paid for by his company. My daughter had to study in her own time, and had to pay to sit all her exams, some cost £2000 for an exam. This is the difference. And we should all know the difference, because we seem not to.

I agree.i am strongly against this strike and it’s just cos of political motivations.

Frogoet, so do not read DT. Do not listen to Iain Dale and Jacqui Smith ( ex Labour Home Sec So what do you read? The Guardian and the Daily Mirror and the News Statesman?

We live in a free society or we are told we do. I need no advice as at my age I do read widely. It does not change anything. If you want a health service that meets all you want then tell that to Sir Keir Starmer. I don’t think you will get very far.

Without diversity and inclusion you lose talent.
We need a diverse workforce-sexual orientation , race and religion can discourage good workers. Woke up and stop reading the Torygraph!

midgey

It’s amazing that we are prepared to pay thousands for our pets to have treatment.

Good point midgey for insurance too.

We already pay national insurance. This is supposed to provide for social security payments, unemployment, sick pay, maternity pay, old age pension and health care. The government chooses not to ring fence this money nor to charge workers a sensible amount. They have introduced Workforce pensions which are basically pitiful. They could have added the same amount to NI contributions and increased the state provision but they chose not to. It is all political choice. It will always serve the private sector better than the public sector. Profits before people at every opportunity.

Having read this thread there is only one answer and that is for the taxpayers have increased tax to make the NHS the type of service citizens want. I understand one third of public money goes to the NHS. So what shall we do? I u derstand that in Eire patients pay to see their GP. Should we do that? In Europe people seem to get good services so do they pay more? Australia has a great health service but Australians pay to see a GP. So the doctors going to Australia to work are going to a Health Service which I found to be run as Private Care. A,though it is nothing like USA. I see quite a few Grans have children and other family members who are Doctors so how do they think we should pay more? Already there is a large amount of waste which nobody mentions. It is time we got real!

Of course, I am not disputing that. It simply arose from a previous poster talking about her solicitor’s fees. And of course doctors see people die Glorianny. That’s pretty obvious.

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m not trying to equate one with the other. Simply pointing out that many people have to work on Christmas Day. Of course solicitors’ responsibilities are very different from doctors’ - but if you b*gger up a multi million pound deal that can be the end of your career, just as if you make a fatal mistake with a patient.

Totally different though, a doctor can kill somebody if they make a mistake, as well as endangering their career. That is the hugest responsibility a person can have.

It’s amazing that we are prepared to pay thousands for our pets to have treatment.

I wonder if people in the U.K. realize how abysmally poor Doctors and nurses are paid compared to other countries . They are 100 percent right to strike !

They are not just striking for money - they have to work ridiculous hours because there are too few of them. NHS conditions are a nightmare. Their training is long, rigorous and expensive - it does not stop when they become doctors. Their job is the most responsible there is and they should be paid a lot more. I support them fully - what else can they do, to get listened to?

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m not trying to equate one with the other. Simply pointing out that many people have to work on Christmas Day. Of course solicitors’ responsibilities are very different from doctors’ - but if you b*gger up a multi million pound deal that can be the end of your career, just as if you make a fatal mistake with a patient.

Actually doctors do see people die. The doctor attending my mum was a young woman, she cried because she couldn't save her. Mum had signed a DNR and wanted to die. There was no mistake but the emotional cost to the doctor was huge. No financial settlement can compensate for that, but being adequately paid would at least recognise their efforts.

I’m not trying to equate one with the other. Simply pointing out that many people have to work on Christmas Day. Of course solicitors’ responsibilities are very different from doctors’ - but if you b*gger up a multi million pound deal that can be the end of your career, just as if you make a fatal mistake with a patient.

Germanshepherdsmum

If you were a commercial client dealing with people in other countries you would see your solicitor working on Christmas Day - as my son did last year.

Lots of people work on Christmas Day. Few of them take responsibility for wards full of people who are ill, in pain and possibly dying. Trying to equate a solicitor with a junior doctor is ridiculous. No solicitor has responsibility for life and death situations. Many junior doctors are in charge of hospitals overnight or on bank holidays.
If all the solicitors in the country went on strike few of us would notice.

Well said Maddyone.

Having come from a medical family and having worked in NHS for 30+ years I never remember a golden age when all staff, nurses, doctors and therapists only worked reasonable hours in good, well paid conditions.
Of course this should all be possible in an ideal world but it just doesn't seem to be an ideal world.

If you were a commercial client dealing with people in other countries you would see your solicitor working on Christmas Day - as my son did last year.

I've yet to see a solicitor on Christmas day responsible for wards full of patients. The junior doctor on duty when my mum was in over Christmas was lovely, bright and smiling in his Christmas jumper. He had to be called to authorise a drip. Nurses knew what was needed and could fix it but not without his signature.
My DIL had an accident last weekend and has been in several times for an injury. She has been well looked after and will be back again after Christmas. People are being treated and cared for.

You may have first hand experience of the training of a doctor Cornishgreenhouse. I have first hand experience of the training of a solicitor. Your solicitor would have studied and trained for anything between five and eight+ years before qualifying, and has an office to run and staff to pay. You may even be quoting the fee inclusive of VAT. However I assure you that only a small percentage of the fee finds its way into his pocket.

It’s not just about the pay it’s the conditions also. My daughter has worked as a junior doctor for eight years now. Many exams at her own expense (£1k a pop), revised in her own time and is looking after two small children. She still doesn’t know whereabouts in the country she is going to be working in February because she hasn’t had her rota yet. So she can’t arrange childcare, re-organise nursery, days etc.. Last week she worked nights and because of the pressures on the system, worked 15hour night shift, or with no extra pay for staying on several hours after her shift had finished She did not have a single break, because they were so busy until a kindhearted nurse gave her half an apple and four celebrations from a tub . No time to drink, eat or gather your thoughts. I do not feel these conditions would be acceptable in many other professions. So hour by hour for the work they do, the pay is not as much as other professions. I cannot think of many professions that need a five or six year university degree at considerable personal expense, followed by a seven or eight year training.
We have recently had to use the services of a solicitor who charged £750 for a telephone consultation and to write a letter!