£600k for 10 years - is that reasonable planning for a home?

Cossy

MissAdventure

I worked for Runwood homes for a while.
Again, there are good and bad, even within that company, but the one I worked in was very good.

That’s so good to hear, here in Essex my experience of this group has been excellent to date for both my MiL and my late Aunt

I'm in Essex.

Yes, that's what I can remember, the £16 pocket money, and that too was in the 80s.

The £16 pocket money was probably what she was allowed to keep from her pension Eirlys. When I worked for a local authority part of my work was obtaining guardianship for people in the council’s homes and selling their houses to pay for fees. All money had to be strictly accounted for of course, and I remember this sort of sum was given to them out of their pension, which was paid to the council. That was early 80s.

Staff won't be privy to peoples funding arrangements, as far as I know.
I never have been, and I have worked "on the floor" and in more office based care roles.

Good practice, respect, and treating people as individuals is across the board.

MissAdventure

I worked for Runwood homes for a while.
Again, there are good and bad, even within that company, but the one I worked in was very good.

That’s so good to hear, here in Essex my experience of this group has been excellent to date for both my MiL and my late Aunt

One of the homes I looked at for my mum showed me two sorts of rooms. One could be paid for by the local authority, the other cost too much and was only available to those paying themselves. The LA room was slightly smaller, and the private one was on the ground floor and had a door which opened onto a small decking area. I did wonder if the staff treated people differently.
Thank goodness for the pneumonia which took my mum before she could leave hospital.

My late husband was in a Care Home. He needed nursing and it cost £6000 a month.

I spent two weeks respite there at a cost of £1000 a week.

When MIL was in a Care Home we could never find out where the £16 (then) pocket money came from ,us, or them.

It seems impossible to get a break-down of what one is paying for : room ; food ; care etc.

My freind is moving into a care home average fee is 1600.00 per week for self pay. It is a newish council owned care home and she requires nursing care.

I did write an earlier post where l gave my husband's nursing home fees as 1,300 per week. That was 2 years ago. He is no longer there but I've looked up the present day fees. Per week it is now 1,500 to 1,650..... depending on the room. So a
Whopping increase of up to 2,000 /2,500...per week in 2 years. Obviously because of increased food and energy costs. And if course this will likely rise every year.

An aunt was self funding until she passed away late year..she was in a residential mid range home ( didn't qualify for nursing care which is mainly paid by govt /social care)
Aunt paid a basic £5000 per month plus * extras* ..I.e.everything from hair ,chiropody, newspapers etc
All the extra added £500 per month usually..even though she never read the newspapers. And did not need hair dresser weekly .
So I would estimate on today's rates about £65,000 to 70,000 p.a.
And family had to prove from her bank accounts that she had at least 2 years funds available before they would accept her!!

I worked for Runwood homes for a while.
Again, there are good and bad, even within that company, but the one I worked in was very good.

fancythat

M0nica

The average length of stay in a care home is two years so, while there will be the occasional person who is there much longer, they will be the exception not the rule.

Doesnt that mean that half the people will be there longer, and half less?

Nope. It doesn’t.

My father (aged 89) has recently gone into dementia care home, it’s approximately 2k per week. He is currently funding it from savings but they will run out in June. His house is also currently up for sale and when it sells (🤞) it will fund him for a few more years. After that if he is still there we hope the LA will fund the majority of the cost but we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Oh to only need £60k a year. It costs my Mum £104k pa and that will increase every year at least in line with inflation. I have had to sell her family home to pay the fees. There are socially funded places but the fees for those people are much less so my Mum is subsidising their places. It is a disgusting state of affairs especially as she couldn't possibly live at home. She is immobile, needs somebody there when she feeds due to her aspiration problems, is doubly incontinent and suffers from dementia so has behavioural problems but she is not eligible for any monetary help at all except for Funded Nursing Care which is paid on top of the £2000 a week we have to find.

We're buggered. We've got zero savings.

I think that many people, quite rightly, have a negative view of care homes because of what has happened since the government allowed the care sector to be used as a money-making vehicle.

Many care homes providers are now loaded with massive leveraged debt from a succession of complex deals, the sole aim of which was to make money for private equity firms. These firms don’t have any interest in the sector other than as an easy and quick cash cow.

My experience has been that care homes are very, very reluctant to give a breakdown of their costs because it would mean disclosingjust how much of what is being paid for care by councils and self-funders is going to service these enormous debts. I suspect that local managers of homes which are part of a chain have little idea about the overall finances of the group. They have a menu of prices based on the degree of care needed but how are these prices quantified?

It’s a matter of public record that homes which have these high debts had double the number of Covid deaths compared to those that didn’t because the former are the homes that continually cut costs at the point of delivery to pay these debts.

Around 70p of every pound we pay in council tax is funding adult social care. Around 50% of people are self-funding so that 70p is only paying for half of the people who need care. This is one of the reasons the care cap was postponed.

Instead of being complacent about this, as we enter the run up to the next general election, we should be asking the opposition parties what they intend to do about this. We need a complete restructuring of adult social care funding to take it out of the control of the money-market and people whose only motive is greed.

I have no objection to paying taxes to fund the care of vulnerable people. I accept that if my time comes, I will fund my own care, care being the operative word. I will not fund the lavish lifestyles of corporate raiders.

While we are stuck with this current system, the key is to find a home which is still managed and controlled by the owner(s), preferably family-run by people with hands-on knowledge of caring.

There are too many places that, while they might not be loaded with leveraged debt, are owned by very greedy people.

Runwood Homes have been in the news several times over the last couple of years, criticised for paying its directors enormous amounts (57 million over five years) while CQC reports distressingly poor standards of care. Residents left for hours in soiled incontinence pads, roughly-handled and restrained while directors buy themselves second homes in Knightsbridge. In 2020, Runwood Homes claimed two million in Covid grants (including furlough payments - go figure). Coincidentally, its principle director and shareholder paid himself an extra two million in dividends. Funny that. Except it isn’t because we are all funding this greed.

The Age UK website is very good and very informative. Each council is different. My mum is in a nursing home and every year she is assessed for her nursing needs. The payment for this side of things is paid directly to the home - not by mum. She just pays for her room, food etc. Her yearly charge is around £72k atm.

Privately funding starts at £1,000 a week here up to a whopping £3,000 a week.

Crocus5

Sorry to hear that Imarocker.What will happen after 4 years?

Social Care will do an assessment, and if able to fund it, will do so, using partial funds from the local
Council budget, and state pension, top ups sometimes required too.

My mother in law did not have her own own so when admitted into a residential care home a couple of years ago she was assessed by the local council and ALL her fees, bar personal expenses, are covered by her state pension and council funding.

There is NO difference whatsoever in the care she receives and you’d be hard pushed to know in her home who is privately funded and who is council funded. Some private residents have slightly bigger rooms and full en suite, my MiL has a lovely room with en suite toilet and sink. However she has advanced dementia so it’s not an issue.

Her group, Runwood Homes, have a variety of homes countrywide, my aunt was also in one self funding. They do have some homes “exclusively” for self finders, ie fees about that which the local authority will pay. We’ve be in three of their homes, spotless, nice facilities and, on the whole, great staff.

Pammiel I am sorry you are going through the same thing. I didn't bother with carers because I could do a better job. Mom couldn't stand to shower so I took a bowl of water into her bedroom. And while she could still do things I got her to do them even though I had to talk her through how to. She loved to brush her teeth but she would swallow the toothpaste and laugh and say she had minty fresh insides. But she would then do it. Because I couldn't wash her hair the usual way. Because she didn't go anywhere I used to use a flannel soaked in warm water and run it over her hair once a week and towel dry .

I did used to have mom downstairs until the last 5 months but one night she sat on the stairs and said she broke her leg and refused to walk. Had to get my nephew to come because I knew he could carry her. But when he came he said come on nan off to bed she stood up and walked up. I told her she couldn't come day stairs again. But she forgot she used to.

You probably have already found your mom has problems with chewing if not yet then. This is what I did for mom she loved porridge for breakfast so made it with double cream and dark brown sugar she would eat a whole bowl full. Used to cover her with a towel when she could feed herself and when I did it. She only wanted tea and biscuits for lunch and I gave her chocolate buttons to get some calories into her. Dinner was a stew but I blitz it with a hand blender so it was like a thick soup as it was easier for her plenty of veg and pearl barely in it. Sometimes she would want some ice cream but usually the stew was enough. Her last week of life she only wanted porridge for breakfast and dinner which was fine. She refused to take her tablets so after a word with our GP she said don't give them to her. They were only BP and mild pain killers . Even though mom had cancer she was never in any pain until the day she started to die. I phoned surgery at 8 and the GP came at one and prescribed end of life medication. Which was morphine my nephew got them after work. Mom wasn't in any pain until 5.30pm the nurse came out straight away and injected her. Mom had slept most of the day . She finally died between 12.10am -12.20 am . I couldn't stay in the same room watching mom died as I did with my husband but went in every 10 mins.

I grieved for my mom whilst her body still lived dementia killed my mom long before.

I hope for your sake your mom dies before she becomes violent. As I would hate for you to go through what I did. But it wasn't my mom . Of all the people who had parents with dementia or Alzheimer's everyone of them became violent . But like I said it's fear that's causes the violence.

I hope you have family support. My brother didn't help because he couldn't face what mom became. He regretted he didn't help after she died but I told him it was to figging late.

But for all it was awful and cost me healthwise wise and carry the scars on my body what my mom did. I wouldn't have done it any different. She was my mom and I loved her .

People have to do what they can . If you have to put your mom in a home don't feel guilty . You are ill yourself. After mom died my health got worse I thought life had caught up with me then thought I had flu . I couldn't see I was yellow as 2 tablets I had been taking from 1992 gave me jaundice in 2017. It was until my gastrologist discharged from his care he told me people with my bilirubin levels normally died. I was lucky I have no liver damage.

No one understands what it's like to look after someone with dementia or Alzheimer's unless you have a loved one with it. But everyone must choose what they need to do to cope .

Take care of yourself Pammiel as your health will suffer .

People would never let any animal suffer but it's ok for humans to . Trouble is doctors are to frightened to get sued . Our McMillan nurse told me husband and me what dose would kill him and we talked about it and the children knew I would have overdosed their dad if he asked me to . It's quality of life that matters no quantity. As without quality it's no life. It would have been my husband's 67th birthday today , tomorrow the anniversary of our first date 49 years ago and Tuesday it will be 20 years since he died.

My grief and love for him has only deepen with the years. But I never want to stop grieving for him as it what gets me through everyday. He is frozen in time aged 47 I am 65. He has missed so much . 😢😢😢

My mother moved to a care home at 89 (dementia) and went on to shortly after her 97th birthday.

That is pretty unusual, though - during her time there I saw many others arrive, decline and quietly disappear. I’m sure even the staff had begun to think she’d go on for ever. About 3 years would seem to be fairly typical.

My elder sister (with P of A) had had the foresight to take out an annuity for her, though, which would cover the shortfall between her income and the fees until she died. We did pay out quite a hefty chunk from her savings - the annuity co. makes a calculated bet based on her age and medical history, etc.

In our case it did pay off. My sister worked out that we’d ’won the bet’ at roughly the end of the first 4 years.

I should add that we’d never really expected her to last so long. She did come from a generally long-lived family, all siblings and their mother well into 80s, but even so, 97….

Interest rates were fairly high then - now that they’ve risen again might it be worth looking at such an arrangement?

Until a couple of years ago I was Chaplain to a Care Home and regularly visited several others in the town. All were rated Good or Outstanding by the CQC, all owners had good relationships with staff - and all were expensive. I would have no qualms about going into a home, but without selling the house we simply couldn’t afford it.

Whiff

I know first hand how hard it is to look after a loved one with dementia. My mom also had cancer she didn't want to but she lived with me the last 18 months of her life . Even disabled I knew I could look after my mom better than anyone. The last 4 months where hell on earth as dementia killed my mom but her body lived on. She became violent but it was out of fear . She didn't know who she was ,where she was or how I was . She thought I was her mom . And in her none violent times said I love you mom. My mom forgot everything but the one thing she never did was wet or soiled herself. Some part of her realised when she needed the commode and told me. I am proud of the fact even though bedridden my mom never had a sore on her body. I made sure of that .

If anyone things I had hundreds in carers allowed you are wrong . They allowed me 6 months carers allowance of £62.20 a week for 6 months because they said my mom would get better. She had dementia and grade 3 breast cancer she was 90 when she died in 2017.

When my husband was terminal with grade 4 malignant melanoma he was given 4 months to 2 years . DLA as it was in 2003 told him no point in applying as he had years out McMillan nurse filled in the forms he didn't live the 4 months. Carers allowance was £43.30 then. I helped mom look after my dad he died 3 years after my husband. My parents never received a penny to o help with his care . We looked after at their house. I also looked after my mother in law and never had a penny. I hated my mother in law for 40 years until she died but I couldn't not look after her. Her brother didn't sit by her bedside the last 2 days of her life 15 hours a day at the hospital. But the minute she died he turned up.

I never want to go into a home nor do I want my daughter to ever look after me. I have watched 3 people die and each time it was horrific. Hopefully I will keep my marbles and when the time comes I have enough tablets to die as I want. But have no intention of dieing any time. Soon.

I’m in this position now. Mum has dementia - very difficult to manage because of the effects of it, but fortunately she’s still pretty mobile, which I’m thankful for because I’m disabled and very limited in what I can do. She was admitted to hospital last year after a fall - it affected her mobility for a while, so the hospital arranged for temporary carers at home so that she could be discharged. The standard of care made me even more determined that I would never put her into a care home.

The morning calls supposed to be between 8.30am and 9.30am got later and later until most of them were at lunchtime. Mum is bladder incontinent and by the time the carers turned up, most mornings I had done what was necessary. When I complained, the care agency told me that the carers made sure she was padded during the night, so to leave her until they arrived !!

The evening call to put her to bed was supposed to be 8-8.30 pm but was mostly around 5.30pm. Way too early - mum would end up getting up again and I’d have to put her back to bed later on. The carers also didn’t shower or wash her if she said she didn’t want them to - said they couldn’t force her. She’s got dementia. - of course she’s going to refuse !! I ended up stopping the care after a couple of weeks because I couldn’t justify paying the charges for what they were actually doing. the care charges were based on 7 hours care a week and I calculated that on average they were here less than 20 minutes a day over the two calls. The system is broken and elderly, vulnerable people are being taken to the cleaners for substandard care.

Luckygirl3

*Mum was refused continuing health care as she was deemed to ill to be assessed.* - this is exactly what I mean about HCPs being ignorant of the qualifying conditions and peddling falsehoods. The assessment is done by those caring for her providing the facts - her inability to be involved in the assessment means that she no doubt qualified.

We had this problem too. My understanding was that the CHC assessment should be done in hospital but they kept telling us that our relative was too poorly for this to be done. By the time she was ready to be discharged into a care home it had still not been done. It was eventually carried out in the care home and was refused as she didn’t meet the criteria !!

Currently £50,000 a year on average where I am. A relative with dementia is paying the basic care package of £4500 a month, but there are extra charges on top of that for certain things. Important to claim all benefits the person may be entitled to, such as attendance allowance as the financial assessment for care will assume you are doing so.