£600k for 10 years - is that reasonable planning for a home?

With dementia there is time to plan and act. In the event of a catastrophic stroke, my LPA dictates that I am not to be kept alive by artificial means and that food and liquids are to be withheld with a view to death ensuing as quickly as possible.

It should be remembered that receiving care at home is often more expensive than going into a home as there are all the existing costs of running a household on top of paying for the care.

S
Awful practice doesnt just happen in lower budget homes.
Nice furnishings do not mean a better standard of care.

That is down to the manager, the staff and the general ethos amongst staff.

Thanks.
I know the difference between median, mean and mode.

But that doesnt explain where the 2 year figure comes from. Nor the, many will be earlier and the tail off part.
Where does all that come from?

That was to vegansrock.

fancythat

Thanks.
I know the difference between median, mean and mode.

But that doesnt explain where the 2 year figure comes from. Nor the, many will be earlier and the tail off part.
Where does all that come from?

Mean length of stay is 801 days but, as we would expect, there is a significant rightward tail to the distribution. The median length of stay is 462 days, with the maximum being 8725 days (nearly 24 years).
eprints.lse.ac.uk › ...PDF
Length of stay in care homes - LSE Research Online

Thank you.

I will have to take your word for that.
When I try to do a search into that link, it tells me it is unsecure.

Really, it just took me to the LSE library. You can read it as secure pdf though if you just type ‘mean length of stay care homes lse’ into your search engine.

Thanks anyway.
If something comes up insecure for me, I err on the side of leaving things.
Better safe than sorry.

my mom lived with my brother so was not a property owner. She did not get funding despite the fact she was bed bound, did not speak and could do nothing . She had to use her savings but when it went down to just over £22k she got some funding but only on the understanding the family would put money into the system at some point. I signed the form just to get funding but we had no money to contribute if pushed. My mom wanted to die but the law states she had to wait for an extremely painful death . as I don't have a family, I expect that i will have to sell my home to support my care in the future .

karmalady

£7000 a month right now for a friend. Too many ifs and buts to say what might be needed for ten years care but £600k would not be enough for ten years, inflation has to be factored in. One year right now would be at least £84k

That is about £234 a day, cheaper than some hotel rooms

Interesting point!

We're actually saving for another holiday.

Callistemon21

^MissAdventure is right. If you have significant ongoing nursing care needs which meet the Continuing Healthcare criteria, the NHS would fully fund your care^

Meeting those criteria is nigh on impossible.
A family member with dementia, incontinent and unable to move or do anything on their own did not meet the criteria. The cost for a nursing home was £1,600 per week and the family was told that as a higher level of care was needed imminently, the person would need 24 hour care and the cost per week would double.
Another person we know who has reached that stage is being cared for at home but trying to get much help is proving very difficult indeed.

Of course, not everyone will need residential nursing or care.

My late OH met the criteria but was refused twice. I appealed and that was heard after his death via zoom as covid was rife. I knew the system so was able to make sure I had all the correct information with evidence - how many others would be able to do that with no knowledge of it all?

It is a wicked system - people jump through complex hoops without the support of the professionals, because those professionals do not know the system. I was told so many wrong "facts", not because anyone was trying to pull the wool over my eyes but because of their ignorance - I knew more about it than they did.

The truth is that if everyone who qualified for CHC funding were to get it the whole system would crumble. Either they need to abandon it as too expensive, or they need to make sure that those who qualify get the funding without having to bang their heads against a brick wall or have a degree in the subject.

The truth is that if everyone who qualified for CHC funding were to get it the whole system would crumble. Either they need to abandon it as too expensive, or they need to make sure that those who qualify get the funding without having to bang their heads against a brick wall or have a degree in the subject.

That is absolutely right, Luckygirl.

I know first hand how hard it is to look after a loved one with dementia. My mom also had cancer she didn't want to but she lived with me the last 18 months of her life . Even disabled I knew I could look after my mom better than anyone. The last 4 months where hell on earth as dementia killed my mom but her body lived on. She became violent but it was out of fear . She didn't know who she was ,where she was or how I was . She thought I was her mom . And in her none violent times said I love you mom. My mom forgot everything but the one thing she never did was wet or soiled herself. Some part of her realised when she needed the commode and told me. I am proud of the fact even though bedridden my mom never had a sore on her body. I made sure of that .

If anyone things I had hundreds in carers allowed you are wrong . They allowed me 6 months carers allowance of £62.20 a week for 6 months because they said my mom would get better. She had dementia and grade 3 breast cancer she was 90 when she died in 2017.

When my husband was terminal with grade 4 malignant melanoma he was given 4 months to 2 years . DLA as it was in 2003 told him no point in applying as he had years out McMillan nurse filled in the forms he didn't live the 4 months. Carers allowance was £43.30 then. I helped mom look after my dad he died 3 years after my husband. My parents never received a penny to o help with his care . We looked after at their house. I also looked after my mother in law and never had a penny. I hated my mother in law for 40 years until she died but I couldn't not look after her. Her brother didn't sit by her bedside the last 2 days of her life 15 hours a day at the hospital. But the minute she died he turned up.

I never want to go into a home nor do I want my daughter to ever look after me. I have watched 3 people die and each time it was horrific. Hopefully I will keep my marbles and when the time comes I have enough tablets to die as I want. But have no intention of dieing any time. Soon.

Mum was refused continuing health care as she was deemed to ill to be assessed. She was incontinent, couldn't walk, couldn't feed, dress or bathe herself. Didn't know who or where she was. She had been sent by the hospital to the home after falling and breaking her hip.
She died 2 weeks later.
When the home sent the bill (£8750) she was only in for 5 weeks we as a family explained that we will pay from mums estate when probate was issued.
At first they were OK with that but after a couple of weeks they had a new finance manager WOW that's when it got nasty. Threatened to send the bailiffs. Ended up we got a small loan. When we sent the money they wanted to charge us 5% on top of the base rate per week interest. Fortunately we had a solicitor who was very good and got the interest stopped.

Oh my goodness Nanawind that's terrible x how stressful. How could five weeks be that much? Crazy.

Research from LSE - ''In the Bupa sample, the average length of stay was 801 days, but with a considerable tail of
long-stayers. Half of residents had died by 462 days. Around 27% of people lived for more than
three years, with the longest stayer living for over 20 years. People had a 55% chance of living
for the first year after admission, which increased to nearly 70% for the second year before
falling back over subsequent years.''

Mum was refused continuing health care as she was deemed to ill to be assessed. - this is exactly what I mean about HCPs being ignorant of the qualifying conditions and peddling falsehoods. The assessment is done by those caring for her providing the facts - her inability to be involved in the assessment means that she no doubt qualified.

Currently £50,000 a year on average where I am. A relative with dementia is paying the basic care package of £4500 a month, but there are extra charges on top of that for certain things. Important to claim all benefits the person may be entitled to, such as attendance allowance as the financial assessment for care will assume you are doing so.

Luckygirl3

*Mum was refused continuing health care as she was deemed to ill to be assessed.* - this is exactly what I mean about HCPs being ignorant of the qualifying conditions and peddling falsehoods. The assessment is done by those caring for her providing the facts - her inability to be involved in the assessment means that she no doubt qualified.

We had this problem too. My understanding was that the CHC assessment should be done in hospital but they kept telling us that our relative was too poorly for this to be done. By the time she was ready to be discharged into a care home it had still not been done. It was eventually carried out in the care home and was refused as she didn’t meet the criteria !!

Whiff

I know first hand how hard it is to look after a loved one with dementia. My mom also had cancer she didn't want to but she lived with me the last 18 months of her life . Even disabled I knew I could look after my mom better than anyone. The last 4 months where hell on earth as dementia killed my mom but her body lived on. She became violent but it was out of fear . She didn't know who she was ,where she was or how I was . She thought I was her mom . And in her none violent times said I love you mom. My mom forgot everything but the one thing she never did was wet or soiled herself. Some part of her realised when she needed the commode and told me. I am proud of the fact even though bedridden my mom never had a sore on her body. I made sure of that .

If anyone things I had hundreds in carers allowed you are wrong . They allowed me 6 months carers allowance of £62.20 a week for 6 months because they said my mom would get better. She had dementia and grade 3 breast cancer she was 90 when she died in 2017.

When my husband was terminal with grade 4 malignant melanoma he was given 4 months to 2 years . DLA as it was in 2003 told him no point in applying as he had years out McMillan nurse filled in the forms he didn't live the 4 months. Carers allowance was £43.30 then. I helped mom look after my dad he died 3 years after my husband. My parents never received a penny to o help with his care . We looked after at their house. I also looked after my mother in law and never had a penny. I hated my mother in law for 40 years until she died but I couldn't not look after her. Her brother didn't sit by her bedside the last 2 days of her life 15 hours a day at the hospital. But the minute she died he turned up.

I never want to go into a home nor do I want my daughter to ever look after me. I have watched 3 people die and each time it was horrific. Hopefully I will keep my marbles and when the time comes I have enough tablets to die as I want. But have no intention of dieing any time. Soon.

I’m in this position now. Mum has dementia - very difficult to manage because of the effects of it, but fortunately she’s still pretty mobile, which I’m thankful for because I’m disabled and very limited in what I can do. She was admitted to hospital last year after a fall - it affected her mobility for a while, so the hospital arranged for temporary carers at home so that she could be discharged. The standard of care made me even more determined that I would never put her into a care home.

The morning calls supposed to be between 8.30am and 9.30am got later and later until most of them were at lunchtime. Mum is bladder incontinent and by the time the carers turned up, most mornings I had done what was necessary. When I complained, the care agency told me that the carers made sure she was padded during the night, so to leave her until they arrived !!

The evening call to put her to bed was supposed to be 8-8.30 pm but was mostly around 5.30pm. Way too early - mum would end up getting up again and I’d have to put her back to bed later on. The carers also didn’t shower or wash her if she said she didn’t want them to - said they couldn’t force her. She’s got dementia. - of course she’s going to refuse !! I ended up stopping the care after a couple of weeks because I couldn’t justify paying the charges for what they were actually doing. the care charges were based on 7 hours care a week and I calculated that on average they were here less than 20 minutes a day over the two calls. The system is broken and elderly, vulnerable people are being taken to the cleaners for substandard care.

Until a couple of years ago I was Chaplain to a Care Home and regularly visited several others in the town. All were rated Good or Outstanding by the CQC, all owners had good relationships with staff - and all were expensive. I would have no qualms about going into a home, but without selling the house we simply couldn’t afford it.

My mother moved to a care home at 89 (dementia) and went on to shortly after her 97th birthday.

That is pretty unusual, though - during her time there I saw many others arrive, decline and quietly disappear. I’m sure even the staff had begun to think she’d go on for ever. About 3 years would seem to be fairly typical.

My elder sister (with P of A) had had the foresight to take out an annuity for her, though, which would cover the shortfall between her income and the fees until she died. We did pay out quite a hefty chunk from her savings - the annuity co. makes a calculated bet based on her age and medical history, etc.

In our case it did pay off. My sister worked out that we’d ’won the bet’ at roughly the end of the first 4 years.

I should add that we’d never really expected her to last so long. She did come from a generally long-lived family, all siblings and their mother well into 80s, but even so, 97….

Interest rates were fairly high then - now that they’ve risen again might it be worth looking at such an arrangement?

Pammiel I am sorry you are going through the same thing. I didn't bother with carers because I could do a better job. Mom couldn't stand to shower so I took a bowl of water into her bedroom. And while she could still do things I got her to do them even though I had to talk her through how to. She loved to brush her teeth but she would swallow the toothpaste and laugh and say she had minty fresh insides. But she would then do it. Because I couldn't wash her hair the usual way. Because she didn't go anywhere I used to use a flannel soaked in warm water and run it over her hair once a week and towel dry .

I did used to have mom downstairs until the last 5 months but one night she sat on the stairs and said she broke her leg and refused to walk. Had to get my nephew to come because I knew he could carry her. But when he came he said come on nan off to bed she stood up and walked up. I told her she couldn't come day stairs again. But she forgot she used to.

You probably have already found your mom has problems with chewing if not yet then. This is what I did for mom she loved porridge for breakfast so made it with double cream and dark brown sugar she would eat a whole bowl full. Used to cover her with a towel when she could feed herself and when I did it. She only wanted tea and biscuits for lunch and I gave her chocolate buttons to get some calories into her. Dinner was a stew but I blitz it with a hand blender so it was like a thick soup as it was easier for her plenty of veg and pearl barely in it. Sometimes she would want some ice cream but usually the stew was enough. Her last week of life she only wanted porridge for breakfast and dinner which was fine. She refused to take her tablets so after a word with our GP she said don't give them to her. They were only BP and mild pain killers . Even though mom had cancer she was never in any pain until the day she started to die. I phoned surgery at 8 and the GP came at one and prescribed end of life medication. Which was morphine my nephew got them after work. Mom wasn't in any pain until 5.30pm the nurse came out straight away and injected her. Mom had slept most of the day . She finally died between 12.10am -12.20 am . I couldn't stay in the same room watching mom died as I did with my husband but went in every 10 mins.

I grieved for my mom whilst her body still lived dementia killed my mom long before.

I hope for your sake your mom dies before she becomes violent. As I would hate for you to go through what I did. But it wasn't my mom . Of all the people who had parents with dementia or Alzheimer's everyone of them became violent . But like I said it's fear that's causes the violence.

I hope you have family support. My brother didn't help because he couldn't face what mom became. He regretted he didn't help after she died but I told him it was to figging late.

But for all it was awful and cost me healthwise wise and carry the scars on my body what my mom did. I wouldn't have done it any different. She was my mom and I loved her .

People have to do what they can . If you have to put your mom in a home don't feel guilty . You are ill yourself. After mom died my health got worse I thought life had caught up with me then thought I had flu . I couldn't see I was yellow as 2 tablets I had been taking from 1992 gave me jaundice in 2017. It was until my gastrologist discharged from his care he told me people with my bilirubin levels normally died. I was lucky I have no liver damage.

No one understands what it's like to look after someone with dementia or Alzheimer's unless you have a loved one with it. But everyone must choose what they need to do to cope .

Take care of yourself Pammiel as your health will suffer .

People would never let any animal suffer but it's ok for humans to . Trouble is doctors are to frightened to get sued . Our McMillan nurse told me husband and me what dose would kill him and we talked about it and the children knew I would have overdosed their dad if he asked me to . It's quality of life that matters no quantity. As without quality it's no life. It would have been my husband's 67th birthday today , tomorrow the anniversary of our first date 49 years ago and Tuesday it will be 20 years since he died.

My grief and love for him has only deepen with the years. But I never want to stop grieving for him as it what gets me through everyday. He is frozen in time aged 47 I am 65. He has missed so much . 😢😢😢

Crocus5

Sorry to hear that Imarocker.What will happen after 4 years?

Social Care will do an assessment, and if able to fund it, will do so, using partial funds from the local
Council budget, and state pension, top ups sometimes required too.

My mother in law did not have her own own so when admitted into a residential care home a couple of years ago she was assessed by the local council and ALL her fees, bar personal expenses, are covered by her state pension and council funding.

There is NO difference whatsoever in the care she receives and you’d be hard pushed to know in her home who is privately funded and who is council funded. Some private residents have slightly bigger rooms and full en suite, my MiL has a lovely room with en suite toilet and sink. However she has advanced dementia so it’s not an issue.

Her group, Runwood Homes, have a variety of homes countrywide, my aunt was also in one self funding. They do have some homes “exclusively” for self finders, ie fees about that which the local authority will pay. We’ve be in three of their homes, spotless, nice facilities and, on the whole, great staff.