Economising

I'm glad I'm not the only one, jangly! Most of the time I seem to be the only person who notices that the oxygen content of the air in a hermetically sealed house has fallen! I find most places I go are less fresh than I would like. I actually start to feel ill after breathing stale air for a while when other people apparently haven't even noticed. Given that asthma is supposed to be quite common and I don't even have it badly, I find this really surprising.

Yes, I've always got windows open at this time of the year, and the kitchen door onto the garden. Hate to feel too shut in. Even in the winter I like to air each room for five minutes in the morning.

It is quite hard to hermetically seal a house. Ours is only 5 years old with double glazing etc etc. Someone used it once to demonstrate "pressure testing". They tape up every possible leaky place e.g. sinks and then use a big fan to blow through the letter box to increase air pressure and find leaks. You'd be amazed at the number of places where air goes in and out.
I guess if you live in an apartment without opening windows, without trickle vents over those windows you would be fairly close - but those oxygen molecules are very small. People die every winter from living in cold houses. People occasionally die from having a gas fire in a sealed room - but very rarely as it is so difficult to eliminate oxygen getting in. Nobody ever dies of suffocation because their house is so well sealed they run out of oxygen.
So steady, Baggy, I like fresh air like the best of 'em - but for older people on limited incomes there is a long way to go in terms of making their houses cosier and cheaper to heat, before they start running out of oxygen. Bit of hijacking going on here maybe?
Just stop for a moment and consider the impact of people leaving a window open a centimetre when their heating is on. Costs an absolute fortune. May as well just post £5 notes out of it and not bother turning the heating on in the first place.

My bedroom faces north-east. Unless there is a strong NE wind, I always have the window open a crack at night. I'd rather have a colder, fresher room and put more covers on the bed and/or wear more sleeping clothes than have the least bit of air unfreshness. During the coldest part of last winter, as well as bed socks and sometimes leg-warmers (which helped with achey ankles), I wore a cashmere jumper over my PJs and sometimes a hat. Hubby can laugh all he likes!

jess, I think our posts crossed there. Please don't take what I said so literally! I know it's difficult to pick up the exact tone of a post without the face language.

I accept what you're saying about improving insulation and about oxygen molecules and all that, but it's also true that houses which were built with fireplaces and which now have double-glazing, closed fireplaces, and so forth, also have a lot more condensation to deal with largely because the ventilation is not good enough. What I'm trying to say is that it's not really a simple issue. Yes, we should do all we can not to waste heat and, where possible perhaps not heat our houses quite so much. What I'm also saying is that I personally am not comfortable in a lot of places because I find them too hot and the air too stale. I'm not going to die from lack of oxygen, obviously, but I do feel ill in stuffy places.

I'm not sure it's altogether helpful for people to mention hijacking every time a conversation takes a turn they don't like. As has been mentioned on other threads, conversations do wander by their very nature.

Dust mites flourish in un-aired houses.

Being over heated all the time wrecks your own body thermostat.

Jess

Evidence jangly?
Not getting at you personally Baggy but this thread is about economising and there are obviously some members who are really struggling with their energy bills. It really concerns me that people cannot afford to heat their houses to a comfortable temperature in the winter. I bang my head against a brick wall trying to get through to MIL that having the bathroom window open all the time, all winter, is not a bright idea.
Depends on kind of house whether or not you get condensation. I'm afraid un-insulated walls, inadequate heating and single glazed windows are more to blame than lack of fresh air. It's the cold surfaces wot does it. Also things like calor gas that kick out loads of water vapour.
One winter in a 1960s house in NZ looking after my chemo-ridden son reminded me just how totally, swearingly grim, miserable and expensive it is to live in an uninsulated house without central heating. And I was fit, healthy and active, and clad in merino long underwear. Plus 3 fleece tops and a scarf, indoors.

Evidence???! I'm not finding and giving links to scientific papers! I just KNOW its true!!

So there.

(tongue stick-y out emoticom)

Please can we send the heat generated by the last few posts to apricot? That should bring her bills down a little.

jangly, we love you!

jangly I don't know about dust mites, except that my house has dust bunnies as well (and though people are allowed to touch the dust they're not allowed to write in it! ), but I do have first hand experience of moulds growing in the inadequately ventilated bathroom of a wee house DH rented for a year before we could all move into our current house together. I cured the problem by jamming the automatically closing door open with a rolled up towel when the room wasn't in use, and by securing the window open a crack.

jess, I understand your MIL wanting her bathroom window open. Ours is open nearly all the time too, just a crack. Even in an airy house such as ours I notice the difference in air quality that that makes. The difference it makes to air temperature is far less noticeable, I find. In very windy weather I shut the window. People find what is comfortable for them and do it.

None of which says insulation is a bad thing, just that you need good ventilation (and some of us need it more than others, not to 'stay alive' but to be as comfortable as possible in our own way) as well so I would never advocate stopping up every air intake. Ideally, and especially in new houses, they can be adapted to prevent draughts. Perhaps I'm just a fresh air fiend but I've never found "five minute airings" enough in any house I've ever lived in.

It depends on the house. If can afford to have your window open and the heating on that is nice for you. But it is really not fair to preach the virtues of this practice on this particular thread. Or to cite "facts" which are just personal beliefs.
I am not seeing the funny side. Feeling a bit .

"Fuel poverty" is a huge problem in this country. It is causes a lot of hardship and illness. One of the vulnerable groups is older people. See this fact from the UK Office of National Statistics:

"In the winter of 2009/10 there were 20,600 more deaths among those aged 75 and over, compared with levels in the non-winter period."
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=574

I'M NOT PREACHING!! I think people who preach to others are really boring.

We are told often, on Radio 4 for starters, that modern houses do need some airing. And that bed dust mites are more prevalent these days because of central heating and closed double glazed windows. Where does it say in the Gransnet rules that I have to produce scientific papers to back up every comment I make.

I wouldn't dream of advocating that older people should have cold houses. Of course not.

But I defend my right to post whatever I want to post so long as it is not upsetting to other genuine gransnetters, and it is not offensive.

So right back at you Jess

and now I'm going to switch off my pooter and find something more interesting to do.

jess, with all due respect, you are the one who said you were banging your head on a wall about your MIL's bathroom window. I was trying, not too successfully it seems, to subtley suggest that you leave her alone! Preaching? Ha! I actually find quite a lot of posts by you rather preachy but I wasn't complaining, just arguing from a different point of view.

With regard to windows open and heating on, again it depends on the house and on personal preferences, as always. Our house is much cooler than nearly every other house I've ever been into, not because the heat goes out of the windows but because we don't overheat it. As it happens, I have a max/min thermometer near the bed which doubles as my alarm clock. Even in winter the variation in room temperature from maximum to minimum is rarely more than (and usually less than) 2°C so I reckon our insulation (thick walls; it's an old house) must be reasonable. In the middle of winter it's usually between 11 and 13°C, not (to reiterate) because we lose the heat but because the heating is rarely on. We only use it to take the chill off the room, not to raise the temperature to sitting-room warmth. At the moment it's a good deal cooler inside my house than it is outside.

I'm not saying that anyone else should do what we do. That would be preaching. I'm just describing what we do and why. I'm not disputing facts, although I may sometimes put a different interpretation on them than someone else might. For instance, yes deaths from a number of causes do increase over the winter months but flu and colds and other winter-associated illnesses (including complicatiions arising from colds and flu) also increase in winter. I suspect that this has always been the case and always will be. It's the nature of winter. Which comes first, chicken or egg?

I was going to finish with some comment about the benefits of global warming for a fuel-poverty stricken country , but I'll refrain.

You are obviously a very hardy bunch Baggy, but surely you agree that 11-13 deg would not be a healthy house temperature for an inactive older person?
If you read the link posted it mentioned that influenza did not seem to be significant factor that year.
Sorry if you think I sometimes sound preachy. Maybe preaching is another word for disagreeing, or putting an opposing argument. Sorry I used the word as it obviously offended. Not meaning to offend, just challenge.

jess, we are probably good for each other, you and I. Let's look on the bright side.

With regard to 11-13°C for an infirm old person, well it certainly wouldn't do in a living-room, but our grandparents had bedrooms that cold (or that 'not warm') all their lives in winter. It didn't kill any of my grandparents. I'm not sure what my maternal grandfather died of when I was four. He had had a duodenal ulcer all his life which may actually have saved his life as a young man because the forces wouldn't accept him during WW1. My paternal grandfather was a miner and died of emphysema. It took a long time to kill him as he had such a strong heart. My grandmothers both lived to a ripe old age. Neither of them ever had the luxury of a heated bedroom or bathroom.

Once I'm in a warm bed, if I notice the cold air at all it's to enjoy it. It's like camping in Scotland in summer. I joke not: minimum temp outside our kitchen window last night was 10.8°C, so colder on the ground. I don't think we're particularly hardy; we just try to adapt to the seasons. So far we've managed.

I want to say more on this but I haven't worked out how to say it yet without sounding callous, which I'm not. Perhaps it will come up in another thread sometime. In the meantime, cheers, and thanks for all the fish .

I think we are a little alike Baggy. Both got strong opinions and both pretty "vocal".
My grandparents died of:
After effects of being gassed in trenches
Smoking
Smoking
Liver cancer in her 80s

Oh, and *Jess[citationplease]M, I got the body temperature thing from Doctor Spock. In whom I have always been a great believer.

My parents (both in their 80's) still live without central heating, and just a coal fire. The rooms are quite big (high ceilings) and my dad who is 84 has to get down on his hands and knees every morning in winter to make the fire, and still has to trundle down the yard to bring the coal from the coal house. I worry about all this because he is not that fit any more and struggles to walk to the end of the road, let alone down an icy yard. However I have tried and tried to get them to have some heating installed and they definitely will not. They do have a calor gas heater which is in the bathroom (which is an old bedroom converted so quite large). I have no idea what their bills are like, but I do know coal is not cheap. If anyone is wondering, they have to light the fire even in summer because it is their only means of hot water. They could quite easily afford to have a water heater or even central heating put in, but "can't be bothered with the hassle, and besides we have managed up to now". Mind you, this should not come as a surprise, because they still have kitchen cupboards made from (I'd guess balsa) wood, which needs painting, and the old formica tops and bakalite handles.

Coal is cheaper than oil. Do your parents have to use smokeless coal, Helshea? I guess it depends where they live.

We are very glad of our wood stove in the winter. It takes the chill off the whole house as well as being the only heating we have during the many power cuts caused by the wrong kind of weather. But, yes, the fuel does need humping. We have crampons for when it's icy outside. DD and I used them to walk to school over several weeks last winter.

No baggy, not smokeless fuel... Think they need to get some form of water heater though, so that they don't have to knot all those pieces of newspaper and collect coal every day even in summer. They don't have many colds though, so proves something I suppose.

We've got an open fire too, although we've got the central heating as well. I can see where your parents are coming from Helshea. I wouldn't want to give ours up (glad of the radiators as well though)

I have bought some of these www.amazon.co.uk/Yaktrax-Walker-Traction-Device-Large/dp/B003ZTONHE/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1310718782&sr=8-11 for the winter in case we get the snow and ice again. I was quite nervous going to the woodshed last winter when it was slippery.

We bought these too Jangly, thankfully just before the snow and ice because everywhere was soon sold out of them. They are great, can be moved from one pair of shoes to another and to Wellies, and come off easily when you go into somewhere with hard shiny floors like a supermarket. We were glad of them when the bus to DHs chemo session had to stop at the top of Orchard Brae (traffic at all angles) and we'd to walk the rest of the way to the Western General. We left home at 8.30 that day for an 11 am appointment, at 6 pm found we wouldn't get a taxi for 4 hours so took 2 buses home again, walking through deep snow and slush between bus stops and from final stop to home. Exhausting.

Two days later, DH lost one of his somewhere between the house and the shops. I retraced our steps but it was nowhere to be seen.

Kahtoola microspikes are even better. Not cheap but better than a broken leg. I wore out my yaktrax in one winter!