How do you define being Common !!!

Corrie...since the very first episode!

Hi seasider!

Corrie for me too!!

Love Corrie!

The word reticent is not one frequently applied to me - I don't watch Eastenders because it appears to be lacking in humour and I can't stand the accents! Corrie and Emmerdale will do!

Well of course I would not dream of doing ANY of these thiings. I am a LADEEE!

p.s. come on *Greatnan no need to be reticent about being a fan of Eastenders I am a Corrie fan myself.

Well, I was generalising Greatnan. But it would be interesting to see if people could be identified by their appearance to where they live with any significant accuracy. When I travel back nostalgically to the Midlands town where I grew up I think I see a difference between people there and people here in the S.E. Even between the middle classes of both places. Here, there's a lot of shabby chic rather than smartness!

Carol my DD1 lived in Chorlton a few years ago and I got to know it well. Yes, quite a lot of arty little shops, nice cafes/restaurants. When DD1 decided to buy instead of rent she couldn't afford the prices there and moved to Old Trafford.

Having caught the occasional glimpse of Eastenders, I have got the impression that bleached hair and short skirts are not exclusive to the North. Surely it is more cultural than geographical?
My sister lives in Swinton and I will be staying with her for a week next month, before bringing her back to France for a holiday. She takes me to her ladies' group when I visit, and they are all very smartly dressed.

Ha ha! Petallus that's typical Chorlton behaviour. I live a mile away from there, and have friends and ex-colleagues who live in Chorlton. It's known as the home of TV people, musicians and social workers. It has a great community atmosphere and is vibrant and multi-cultural, but is middle-class and not inclusive for people struggling on benefits. There are more book reading clubs and am-dram groups in Chorlton than anywhere else in Greater Manchester.

Carol I do sympathise with your struggles back then. I don't know how I or my family would have fitted in if I had passed the eleven plus.

I think you are right about the same thing being perceived differently according to where you live. I often visit Manchester because DD1 lives there. What seems to be normal attire there (bleached hair, more makeup, shorter skirts etc. I'm generalising of course) would be thought of as rather common here in the S.E.

Last year I was loitering looking in shop windows in Chorlton, near Manchester, when an arty, intellectual looking woman approached, engaged me in conversation and then offered me an invitation to her 'art party' that evening. I wondered why she had picked on me but then wondered if my normal S.E. appearance made me look more like her than I actually am.

I'm from the Midlands originally and when I first moved 'down South' I was amazed at the confidence and high level of education of the people here.

I find it very patronising when people like the public-school educated Blair use what they think is the language of the people. At least Cameron does not try to hide his background, although saying 'We are all in it together' was a very stupid remark from a multi-millionaire.

For some reason my English accent has given some people the idea that I'm 'posh'! Throughout my working life, some have said, "I always thought you were posh - but you're not really, are you?" Back-handed compliment, or what !

Apologies for the typos - my only excuse is that I have destroyed my last decent pair of bifocals and am reduced to using my decorating specs - the ones flecked with years of old emulsion paint!

As Shaw said (something like): The moment an Englishman opens his mouth, another Englishman despises him. Although it seems that posh. people have now developed Estuary English in an attempt to get on down with the kids. Oh dear, I realise from my sarcastic tone that I am reflecting the truth of Shaw's statemement!

It's really very moving to read the struggles of gransnetters to obtain a decent education for themselves.

I went to primary school in south Manchester and the mention of low expectations certainly resonates for me. My parents and teachers weren't prepared for me passing the 11 plus, and at first I was told by my father that I wouldn't be going to grammar school. It was only the week before the summer holidays ended that he relented and 'allowed' my mother to fill in the form to choose which grammar school I would prefer. I got my third choice and it was downhill after that! Grammar school was miserable, some girls were very snooty and I avoided as much as I could then left at 16, having managed to duck out of maths lessons for two years. Teachers appeared to regard me as not worth bothering about - one commented that she knew I lived on a council estate. All I learned at grammar school was that girls who live in council estates are common and undeserving of a higher education, so I reinforced those views.

I went on to do my OU degree, like many others, and get myself a good career. As I always lived in the most southern part of Manchester and on the edge of the Peak District from being 21, my accent changed and people assumed I was from Cheshire or part of the Midlands. Meanwhile, many Mancunians of the next generation developed that twangy 'Manc' accent that is so alien to people of my generation. My children grew up saying 'graars' and 'paarss' instead of the flat 'a' that is used in Manchester, and then they complained that they were called posh when they changed schools after we moved to part of north Manchester. It seems that, without me being aware, I and my family have been assigned to different social classes each time we are perceived as being slightly different from the majority. I suppose in the south of England we would be common, and in central Manchester we would be posh! Weird!

Just think, once I didn't even know how to spell knackered emic and now I is one!

I can't remember there being discrimination at my Midlands primary school (next to the gasworks). We were all working class and only one of us (a boy) passed the 11 plus. But anyway for most of the children I knew passing only meant you left school at 16 and went to work in a posh shop like Boots, rather than leaving at 15 and going into a factory or Woolworths. One person in his twenties was a legend in our neighbourhood because he had been to 'the University' (whatever that was we thought ).

I found my way through to middle class life in the end, via a secretarial course and the Open University and I suppose natural inclination but I don't feel like a class traitor because I never deny my roots even now I'm now living in the posh South East.

Elocution lessons were fairly commonplace where I lived, I did not have them but my younger sister did. We did not speak badly, mother just thought that it would give my sister another string to her bow.

Fortunately, my family were all great readers and my parents loved classical music, so I didn't have any culture clash with home and school.
My problem was their low expectations - they thought being a secretary, rather than on the factory floor, was a huge leap forward. I had to wait until I was 27 before starting a degree and it was damned hard work with two children under four and a long bus journey each way.

I think a lot of grammar school educated, working class children developed different modes of speech and discourse for home and school. Many parents had commendable aspirations for their children, but also feared them 'getting above themselves'. This conflict of culture has been the source of many novels about the period, of course. I suppose it largely came to an end with the advent of the 1960s and the introduction of comprehensive schools.

Never seen that way of holding a fork, greatnan, but the American way of cutting up the food with the knife, leaving it on the side and then using the fork as a 'shovel' seems to be catching on here, unfortunately.

My catholic junior school in Salford was exactly the same. The head nun would take about eight girls in the top class each year and give them extra tuition to get them through the 11+ (or 'the scholarship' as we called it). They were not the brightest girls, just the ones whose parents were well in at the church and contributed most to school funds.
My own Salford accent has been diluted because I haven't lived in Lancashire for almost 50 years and I had to learn to speak clearly when I was teaching/lecturing.
I don't see anything 'common' about holding your knife like a pencil , but don't you find it less efficient when cutting meat? I never noticed this until fairly recently. There is a rather strange way of holding a fork now, with the handle sticking up through the fist as though it were going to be used to stab someone! I just find the traditional way of holding both utensils with the handle in the palm is the most useful.

I went to school just outside Manchester too, vegasmags. I also went to a Grammar School, and I never heard of anyone having elocution lessons, or being told they needed them. But it's a big place - perhaps you were in north Manchester rather than south?

Indeed it was terrible. This was in Manchester. I remember that when I went to the grammar school, many girls had elocution lessons to rid them of their Northern accents and it was common (no pun intended) to refer to someone as having an 'educated' voice if they had managed to erase their flat Northern vowels! This really puzzled me as a child, as I assumed it was the person who was educated rather than their voice. My voice has remained uneducated, I'm happy to say.