So, now they want to comp9se some crxxpy lyrics to replace..........

Oh my gosh!

I'm not of a BNP persuasion Grannyactivist!!!

I haven't been thinking about immigration on this thread!

On a serious level, I'm with you both there, Bags and ga; happy to be in a country where we are so infinitely better off than much of the world's population, where we have clean water, and therefore a lack of water borne diseases, for example. I am happy to expend some of my energy in areas where there is a life threatening lack of the basics of life.

But still enjoying the chat about national songs, and winding up my dear Scot into the bargain.

Bags I'm not awfully keen on religion or patriotism either. I do have a deep and abiding Christian faith, but don't like what institutional religion has made of it. I'm also not keen on the sort of patriotism that says, 'this country is MY country'. I am happy to be British and to have all the advantages that brings with it, but feel that I then have a responsibility towards those who don't have such advantages - many of whom come here hoping to make better lives for themselves and their children.

butty,

jings, as for what I like — life, the universe and everything that isn't nasty or too noisy.

B - Your starters sounded like a complete whole meal to me. Filling and satisfying.

I guess I think religion and patriotism are a waste of energy as well, though I accept that not everyone feels like that. I don't hate them; I just don't find they are necessary.

Enthusiasm for the outdoors, liking kids, wanting to encourage independence and self-reliance. Will that do for starters?

My relationships with my daughters are close, but we manage without each other perfectly well when we have to, which is most of the time, because we simply don't see the point of not doing that — waste of precious energy — when we don't have a choice. We accept what is and don't pine for something else. It's about being happy with what you have, I suppose.

Bags I'm a bit puzzled. You hate religion and you don't much like patriotism. You don't seem to believe really in close family relationships. How do you manage to run a cub scout group?

And what do you like?

Just out of interest.

I'm not sure. The feeling started when I was still at home (so, a teenager) and my dad was waxing lyrical about patriotism during WWII. It gave me the creeps because it seemed to involve a certain anti-everyone else stance. Maybe not much, but a bit. Then, later, and now, I don't know if I could ever fight for my country because that would mean acknowledging that we were right, and we so seldom are completely so. I guess what it comes down to is that it seems like a very primitive sort of emotion to me.

That said, when I was working in Thailand and saw how different things were there, I often felt glad that I was European/'western': health care, education, etc.

Why not Bags? Just interested.

A lot of soccer players aren't british so it's not surprising they just stand there for the national anthem. Don't know about rugby players. Maybe more of them are British.

Don't know about soccer players either except that a good number of them are foreign.

I'm not keen on patriotism really.

Actually I've always thought we should have changed the national anthem when Victoria died and certainly should have had a new one when QEII came to the throne ...to reflect the so called new world after WWII.

But totally agree England should have it's own song

I wonder what would happen to the Union flag if Scotland did leave? perhaps we'd get a dragon in the middle of the St. George cross

phoenix that is so funny about the queen trooping the colour to the Archers theme tune! Made me laugh out loud!

Ah, now you're talking! The Welsh know how to sing an anthem, and give it some welly!

PS Noticed how the English rugby lads seem to know and sing the National Anthem, but the foootball ones just seem to stand there?

You can tell how popular an anthem is by the footballers lined up in the World Cup. Some teams can't or don't want to sing any of it. If it's sung like Land of our Fathers then that's lovely but England must realise that the time is now over and it shares this island with 2 other countries. Leave the Nat Anthem as it is so that at least our generation know the words.

jeni !

phoenix yes!!! "Rumpty Rumpty tum it tum.."

My old man
Said follow the van?

Anyone remember Billy Connolly reccommending the Archers theme tune, and describing the possibilty of the Queen trooping the Colour on horseback (sidesaddle) to it?

I love "I vow to thee..." at our St George's Day / Shakespeare's birthday celebration last night, someone (a superb singer) sang that and it was so moving.

I Vow to Thee, My Country

According to ‘wiki’ this is a British patriotic song ...not an English one!!
Do we really want a song created in 1921, based on a poem written in 1908 to represent modern England??

The first verse, and second verse, refer to the United Kingdom ( not England), and relate to the sacrifice of those who died during the First World War. Again is this right for a modern English anthem?

The last verse, starting "And there's another country", is a reference to heaven ...mmm! I wonder how many English citizens would want this for ‘modern’ England ??

For those of us, who are not necessarily familiar with all three verses ...

I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
The love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.
I heard my country calling, away across the sea,
Across the waste of waters she calls and calls to me.
Her sword is girded at her side, her helmet on her head,
And round her feet are lying the dying and the dead.
I hear the noise of battle, the thunder of her guns,
I haste to thee my mother, a son among thy sons.
And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace

yes ...it is one of my favourite hymns and I love the Holst music ...but not an English anthem

I'm a bit squeamish about national anthems - music is so powerfully emotive that it can be used to foster mass emotion in both positive and negative directions.
And so far, the emblems of the olympics, for instance, that have been created are so naff that I fear any new anthem would be the epitome of naffdom!

I vow to thee my country is a very beautiful tune.

"I Vow to the my Country" - we English need an anthem and this would be my choice. The National Anthem should be kept for national events.

I hadn't thought of that Ariadne! Not in all these years!

How funny. But true.

What about the real sixth verse?

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.

May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.

God save the Queen!

Just thought I'd mention it.

And yes, jing that would get people belting it out. Though he who always has an objection wants to know what "red, white, and blue" has hot to do with England because these are the colours of the Union Jack, not the flag of England.

I may crush my own "rebellious Scot" shortly!