The Golliwog

Or perhaps I should say that I share those sentiments with them!

See how careful one has to be!!!!!!!!

Bloody, damned political correctness!

Quite!

Barrow I agree with your friend. I've always thought there was something patronising about white (pseudo) liberals rushing in to defend black people at every opportunity, as though black people couldn't do it for themselves, and boosting their own sense of righteousness by doing so.

Also, bending over backwards not to offend black people in all the little ordinary ways we go around offending each other is patronising.

When my sister and I were little, one granny knitted us golliwogs and the other granny bought Robertson's marmalade and jam so we could collect the stickers and send off for the badges. We loved gollies - and later we loved the Black & White Minstrel Show. But this wasn't racism. We're talking cuddly toys, favourite preserves and fabulous music. So I don't know what all this hysteria is about.

Perhaps people like me - and most of you - should start foaming at the mouth when we're called Whites by other races. But of course we don't, because we are, by and large, an incredibly tolerant and kind nation and we try and welcome everyone to this country, whatever their race, creed or religion.

Some would say too tolerant - but that's another thread for another day.

Bags before I decide to end this thread - your description of why a golly is made like he is takes my breath away. I wish I hadn't started this thread, with the exception of the sane few is the fact that racism whether deliberate or through ignorance is alive and well in the U.K. [elsewhere too I know}. It has filled me with some sorrow. My daughter feels 'its an age thing' . Could she be right? I hope so I don't want another generation growing up like this.

Eh dorsetpennt - 'decide to end this thread' ??

Could someone tell me the difference between a pseudo intellectual and a real intellectual?
The fact that racism is still rampant in the police force belies the claim that ethnic minorities don't need us to be diligent in support of them. Is it patronising to recognise such discrimination and want it to be eradicated?
And the reason white people don't mind being called white is because they think that being white is superior to being any other colour.
It is impossible to have a serious debate when you are told that if you object to what you see as offensive racism you are really just covering up your own racism. What nonsense.
I am glad to be politically correct, if by that its meant that I try not to discriminate in a negative way against any group of people, whether they are disabled, homosexual, or of a different race/colour to my own. PC is just another thoughtless platitude to be used against anybody with whom you do not agree.

We are all, I presume, well aware that slavery was and is practised by non-whites - witness the enslavement of thousands of foreign workers in Dubai and other Middle Eastern states. They are promised good jobs and hope to be able to help their families in the Phillipines, Bangladesh, etc. Instead, they have their passports taken from them and are forced to live ten to a single non-air-conditioned hut, they work long hours in stifling heat and when their employer goes bust, as has happened in Dubai, they are simply abandoned. I object to that - how patronising of me! This does not negate the fact that white slavers, often claiming to be Christians, made millions out of exploiting black people. Have two wrongs suddenly started making a right?

This may well be a generational thing -most young people seem to be much less bigoted, apart from the idiots in the BNP - and the police force. I am thankful that I was raised by parents who were obviously way ahead of their time in their thinking.

dorsetpent - you wish! (end the thread)

I think dorset means she will not be wasting her time on any more contributions, and I think I feel the same way.

I don't think were going to agree on this one. I have friends and ex-colleagues who would tell me they were sick to death of being the 'lone voice' when explaining why they feel something is racist, and they wished white people would show some support, instead of sitting back and waiting for them to object to the racist joke, unintended hurtful comment or lack of attention to diversity when it came to black issues.

I agree we shouldn't patronise, and jump in to criticise in a nonsenical way. Some people are ok with using derogatory words if there is no intention to be hurtful, others think we should be more sensitive about it. I think golliwogs are symbols of racism and explained to my children why I wouldn't buy such toys, at the same time I explained that I wouldn't provide them with toy weapons, or dolls that objectify females.

I loathe pc fascism, but I have heard how much golliwogs have hurt black people's feelings and I respect what I have learned.

whenimsixtyfour totally agree!

Quite exhausting reading this lot-mainly in total agreement with Bags .I always thought that wog meant wily Oriental gentleman-have I been mislead ? and although I had very limited toys as a postwar child I had a money box which gave me the shudders-a minstrel with a single hand in which you could slot a penny and the hand went to the mouth and swallowed it. Somehow it seemed very unpleasant.

Are we really ....

in 2012! Some of the comments here are just incredible.

Short answer ... Yeah NO!

I don't think we ever had the chance to be racist when I was a child, even we wanted to be (No. We wouldn't!) Of all the schools I was in, I don't think there was a single black child. This was the forties, early fifties. Small town in Oxfordshire.

Same for me Jingle. The first time I ever saw a black person in real life was when I got on a bus with my mum at the age of 5, in 1953. A black man sat opposite us on the long seat and got off at the bus station, where a number of other black men were walking into the offices. I now know that these were men who had sailed over on the Windrush to get jobs here, at the invitation of the British government. I lived on an all-white housing estate and the children at my school were all white British until some refugee children arrived as a result of the Hungarian uprising. We had few black peers in the 50's. It wasn't until I went to grammar school that I had friends of different races, and then I learned that some people objected to black people living in Manchester.

I know more about racism these days, but then I thought it was cut and dried - you don't treat people as you wouldn't like to be treated yourself, and you don't call them names or mock them. I would be happy to see lots of black dolls with appropriate features, like the dolls representing other races; but not dolls that objectify or belittle, whether it's a Barbie, a golliwog or anything else.

In the 80's a Nigerian woman lived with us for 2 years - a survivor of the Biafran Civil War. We then had a young Sudenese man from Khartoum living with us for 4 years. They had both suffered from black/black (tribal) racism.

Through my knowledge gained in being with these two people, I would say there is much to be said for looking at the context and intent of behaviour towards others, whatever race. They had both seen and experienced much, and worrying about a black doll would be very low on their list.

I understand that some people find gollywogs racist.That's why my kids didn't have them. That's why DD3 doesn't even know what one is. If she saw one, I don't even know what her reaction would be but she doesn't seem to think differences in skin colour are terribly important. Is it racist to encourage colour-blindness in this respect or not?

I like noticing the differences in features and skin colour of people. To me it's the same as noticing differences in regional accents. You then get the fun of trying to guess, in the latter case where the person grew up, or in the former case, where their ancestors grew up. It is purely observational. I was not being negative about the features I described. What is there to be negative about? There is nothing negative about the greater contrast between the whites of eyes (or teeth) against a dark skin. There is nothing negative about observing that one of the features loosely called 'negroid' in the past (possibly still) is thicker lips than, say, most Europeans have. There are sound evolutionary reasons for common differences in human features in different parts of the world. I don't think it's wrong, in principle, to caricature these differences nor to talk about them. We talk about differences between ancient European groups of people (Latin, Nordic/Germanic, Celtic, etc) and nobody minds.

As somebody said, intent is what counts.

I intended that my kids would grow up non-racist. It's OK to notice differences in how people look. That doesn't mean you treat them differently.

Bags. Stop. It is quite obvious that you would never be racist.

I agree absolutely, Bags.

Hear, hear!

What on earth would the 'intent' be on anyone who wants to bring them back??? I'd seriously question their motives. I never found Gollywogs offensive as a child, of course not. But if some people have been offended and bullied- and Gollywogs were part of this - then that is good enough for me.

Bags, like you I don't believe in being 'colourblind', or 'differenceblind' - those differences make all our lives richer and therefore should not be ignored.

granjura and Bags Quite right. With you all the way.

Please look at this link, and scroll down a little to find the BNP golliwog key rings for sale

www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/new-british-national-party-merchandise-available-excalibur

Bags - that's how I feel too. In our country we now see people of many different races. They marry and have relationships with each other, and have children, who will have their own children. This will go on indefinitely, 'diluting' facial characteristics and possibly culture. Accepting this as how things will be is how it SHOULD be.