Missing Schoolgirl Megan Stammers.

I want to make several points, so please forgive me if I do not look back and check the names of each poster.

Firstly, I disagree with Bags (something I rarely do). I think children are sexual beings from birth and learn to control their pleasure in their own bodies because they soon realise it is not acceptable. I believe children masturbate to gain sensual pleasure. I was certainly capable of arousal at ten. (No, I was not abused by an adult). I taught one girl of 13 who had learning difficulties and we had to keep a close eye on her to stop her masturbating in the classroom as she was not able to understand the boundaries that other children had learnt. I realise that most mothers find it hard to accept the fact that 'innocence' is not the same as 'ignorance'. When parents are told that their child has been engaging in sexual activity the reaction is usually total anger and denial - 'Not my boy/girl, he/she is not like that'.Well, they mostly are 'like that' but luckily most of them don't come to harm.

Secondly, I think school uniform actually encourages men to think of girls in a sexual manner, which is why porn magazines show young women in school uniform. I watched girls of about this age coming out of a secondary school in Switzerland this week. They don't wear uniform, and not a single girl was wearing anything provocative or inapproriate. Ihave noticed the same in other countries.

I am afraid there are many cases of doctors behaving in unprofessional ways with patients - just look at the GMC's Fitness to Practise hearings. They only get publicity if some newspaper thinks it makes a juicy story.

We seem to have come full circle - when life expectancy was short, girls matured early and in the middle ages would be married (if they were rich) or anyway pregnant in their very early teens We are told that Juliet was 13.
Now, we keep our children financially dependent until well into adulthood, but it doesn't stop them being physically and sexually mature - and some of them are very emotionally mature too.

This teacher was an idiot to throw away his career, probably his marriage, and possibly his freedom for the sake of indulging his passion for a lovely young woman. The fact that she wore make-up, dyed her hair, etc. is quite irrelevant. He must have known the law about having sex with a pupil under the age of 18 - if not, why not?

I do agree that not everything illegal is immoral - being in possession of certain recreational drugs is a crime, but apart from the harm it does to families it should be a personal choice.

Think you've possibly hit the nail on the head there. Would we all think differently if he was still a thirty year old teacher but had a totally different appearance [wore a suit and had a moustache for instance]. Is it because he looks young for his age and she looks older than her age that there is a distortion of the facts pertaining to the case?

I have just been mulling over this case and comparing it to the awful sex abuse scandals in Rochdale and elsewhere. I know they have been referred to earlier in the thread but I was thinking of them in relation to the way we view the girls in the different scenarios. While I have not been involved in these high profile cases I have worked with many girls who have been abused both by individuals acting alone and by more organised groups. I know that many of these girls are very sexualised at an early age, wear makeup, dress provocatively and actively seek out men. Many of them do not see themselves as victims and I'm sure that many of those in the high profile cases would still not do so. I'm sure most of us here - if not all - would think they were. I think when has spoken about this earlier. What I am wondering is what makes us define some girls as victims but not others. Is it just that the teacher seemed a nice, respectable, if immature man?

I would not necessarily brand him a "paedophile" but I think he bears 100% of the responsibility for this one. The girl is a vulnerable child in law, and probably emotionally as well. A 15 year old girl is unlikely to have the ability to think through the consequences of running away like that. Including the one about him ending up in jail.
He is an adult man (twice her age) who has made a really bad judgement that has destroyed his career and given him a police record. What on earth could he have been thinking of. Many of us have had inappropriate passions, in adult life - but taking an underage girl out of the country is a specularly bad decision.
Posts above that to some extent lay the blame on the girl are leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I am not ducking.

I think this is going to be a case of the judge's summing up of it being very crucial to the sentence imposed. It's hard to think of this very stupid young man being treated in quite the same was as an out and out paedophile [where nothing of the horrors of prison are even remotely bad enough for what they deserve to happen to them when they get there].

Yes, absolutely Bags. Not the first and won't be the last.

nightowl . I think there's a firm line being held by those of us with child protection responsibilities because over the years you get accustomed to computing all the possibilities and complexities from a professional standpoint. No case is free of confusing variables and red herrings, and assessing this teacher is going to be a challenge, because on the surface he doesn't come across as your average offender.

I agree too that Forrest is in the wrong. But that doesn't mean such things won't happen. He's also human, and clearly weak in certain respects, and lacking in judgment, and unprofessional, and so on and so on.

All I'm trying to say is that given what human beings are like, there will always be problems like this from time to time and, much as we may want to legislate against human weakness, we can't. We can try. We can do our best. We can improve training where it's needed. But we can't prevent every single instance of teacher naivety, idiocy, wickedness, etc. because, however much we'd like there to be a simple line between childhood and adulthood, there isn't. And it's naive to think that there is or even should be.

Seems to me the law is dealing with this case as best it currently can. But I always think it's worth bearing in mind that the fact that something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it wrong in absolute terms. (And vice versa, the fact that something is legal doesn't necessarily make it right – think 'legal' tax dodging, for instance).

Sorrywhen I know you and others were of the same opinion earlier in the thread and I didn't mean to overlook your views. It's certainly a thorny issue!

You're not in the minority nightowl. There's another one here who says the responsibility is 100% with him. She may have behaved inappropriately -children often do! That's what education, development and learning is all about - it should happen in a safe environment, not one where some teacher with his own personal problems finds the answer in a teenage girl.

I also agree with nightowl that trust and the very profession he is in puts him into contact with young people and where in another profession they wouldn't be so readily in front of him,in order to protect himself a distance must be maintained,and yes crimson if he was a doctor also there would be an outcry,if he had met Megan in a club not knowing her age,and at a different school,although again wrong would be just as easy to cross the line and give in to temptation as she would still be a schoolgirl and he a teacher.

Littlenellie don't you dare duck behind the table you are spot on with your thinking but I also am of the mind that doctoring their unifroms does not make it right in unwanted attention being given by older boys/men.mr.glamma has always said that Grange Hill and Waterloo Road have a lot to answer for as for the uniforms and make-up and the familararity of the pupils with the teachers to some youngsters this is the norm.I just hope that Megan can get back into the run of normal family life after this upsetting episode.

Good analogy crimson. And if he was a residential social worker he would not have received any sympathy at all.

profesisons....I'm making up new words here ...

I meant what if 'he' said; typo...

What if we changed the profession and he was a doctor? Just imagine the outcry then. What if we said, 'well, this young girl took off her clothes in front of me and what was I expected to do, I mean I am a red blooded male?' You enter certain profesisons knowing what behaviour is expected of you and must adhere to those conditions. Like I said we're just trying to understand how and why this happened so lessons can be learned.

I seem to be in a minority here, but to me the main issue in this case is not about age but the position of trust. He was clearly very ill suited to his chosen profession. Girls will always be girls - but adults should be able to understand that and see it for what it is. And teachers and others in positions of trust must be able to do so.

He must have broken some sort of code of conduct in his terms of employment?

Love the word hanky-parky elegran and I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say he was naive,although he has done wrong I do feel sorry for him giving in temptation and ruining his whole life,I hope that Megan doesn't reveal when questioned that she has been damaged by this,and wether when this has died down they would continue to see each other under supervision from her parents if this is a genuine relationship.

In my eyes, he's not a criminal.

I'm with you there, elegran, and nearly mentioned the two to tango thing myself. There is no indication that Megan was forced in any way into anything. Nor is there any indication of how emotionally and psychologically mature either of them are. They may not be so far apart, really. A law has been broken, but it is a very clumsy law. By its nature, it has to be. For me, this is just yet another example of how we often cannot say this is right and that is wrong because there is a huge, indefinable, grey area that we cannot be sure about.

A sensible young man would have gone to his "line manager" (yes, they really are called that in some schools, making it seem even more like a factory) and said he needed support. So Forrest isn't a sensible young man. Well, what a surprise! That's never been heard of before.

My grandmother always said when she heard of "hanky-panky" of any kind that it takes two to tango. That included blaming an unmarried father as much as the mother, instead of saying that "boys will be boys" and assuming the girl was "no better than she should be".

Girls will be girls, too, and we don't know what this young man's previous sexual experience was - perhaps he was like some students I knew when I was young, focussed on learning and living at home where parents frowned on early entanglements that could hinder his education, so that he is as naive as she is.

I knew one young man (well, he was in his thirties but geeky and inexperienced) who was seduced, fleeced of all his savings and left bankrupt by what the Victorians would have called an adventuress.

(I hasten to add that I know nothing at all about either this young teacher or his pupil other that what is reported, so I am not passing judgment on either of them)

crimson I am being just as cynical in thinking if she was a very plain girl would this have happened,I can see now why girls are not allowed to wear make up for school,and skirts and uniforms not doctored in anyway and of acceptable length,had she looked like a little school girl in her uniform that form a peadophile perspective would have been more worrying as she is obviously a schoolchild,although not right he responded to a physical young woman(maybe not an emotionally young adult) the uniforms at E's school are under review with a new headmistress some of the ways in which they are worn resemble Lolita,perhaps stricter rules regarding the way in which a uniform is worn,make up etc should be looked at...now hiding under the table and ducking.

I know my daughter is aways having to do online courses in different things. I bet that has been one of them. Whether it was discussed during her training year I can't say.

is child protection taught as part of the teachers training ?