Male/female traits and characteristics

Wasn't the pink/blue thing something to do with a member of the royal family painting a nursery the wrong colour [or something like that]. Bit like the white rose/red rose thing in Alice . Sorry I'm being a bit obtuse today [more so than usual].

I remember reading long ago (sorry can't quote) that the same characteristics that are generally applied to women could also apply to slaves - patience, subtlety, interpretation of non-verbal communication, empathy, a taste for emotion-releasing song and so on.

The parallel was made of them both being in a weaker position, controlled, dependent, prevented from expressing anger or needs, needing to know what was going on in the mind of a more powerful person ......

So hard to sort out even the nature /nurture aspect.

Did anyone else see the research where they dressed babies (about 6-8 months I think) in stereotypical boy/girl colours and asked people to go and play with them? Babies in pink were spoken to more & in soft sing song voices, told they were pretty & cute & handled more gently: rocking and cradling. Babies in blue were responded to in louder voices, told they were strong /big and were handled in a more robust way: held up high /jiggled!

Of course they had 'cross dressed' the babies. Guess they were trying to show that even though people think they treat boys and girls similarly sometimes we do not!

Are you sure notso?

Daman That was good training!

I remember being told that the main difference between the sexes is in what motivates them. That the main driving force for girls and women is to please others and the main driving force for boys and men is to please themselves.

A sweeping generalisation of course..........

'Glasses,' spectacles were my training to survive. I already had curly hair and was pretty, when my school teacher decided I needed glasses (the first free National Health ones). From then on I could not fight or play rough, in case the glasses got broke, and therefore could only achieve anything with words and softness - and I learned the ways of girls. (cont.)

jorj it might have helped had you known then (and been able to convince one of those fathers) that boys were once dressed in pink (as a warm, active colour, suitable for hot-blooded males) and girls in blue (to show how calm and peaceful they were)

Fashions change! But fathers' desire to have their boys "manly" seeems to go on.

jorj I understand what you are saying about lads and lasses and the difficulties for the boys, i.e young children. But it is still so much harder for the young women when they get older.

Just come across this thread, and am interested in the 'cissy boy' difficulty. I used to run a playgroup (20 years ago), and some of the boys were being encouraged (usually by dad) to "hit back", "punch him before he punches you", and fighting was labelled "a bit of rough and tumble". One boy loved to dress up in fairy dresses. His dad found out and asked us to stop him (we refused, explaining that it was important for all children to explore as many roles as they can before prejudice and stereotyping set in). Another boy I know loved (perhaps still does) the colour pink, when he was 9 or 10 years old. It's so much harder for the lads than for the lasses. (Sigh)

We adults are still so prejudiced (and I count myself in here, despite intensive training and 'counter-indoctrination' !), and it's so hard not to let it show. Maybe in another 20 years...

I can see where Oliver James is coming from with his 95%, but it's not easy to re-educate oneself, however hard one tries!

Just to add a slight detour, most of the people I know on the Autistic Spectrum are rather androgynous in behaviour. The "Extreme Male Brain" theory of Asperger's - which seems to ignore the females (Hmph!) is somewhat upset by the substantial number of Aspies who transition male to female.

Autism is genetic, so are the other factors here genetic as well?

Anyone else know people who have transitioned? Male to female is a lot more common than female to male but I know both.

I expect a lot of you have already seen this:m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=r-b7d48eA8M&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dr-b7d48eA8M&gl=GB

Way back in about 1956 my dad's sister in law had four boys and the youngest at about 3 wanted a dolls pram for Christmas and got one. Good for you Aunty Kath!
In the 1980s my neighbour insisted her daughter was never going to play with trains, what a sad attitude.

My DS (1st born) had an Action Man but spent a lot of time tucking him up in bed. DD was a very girly girl, despite my very best efforts to allow her to be the Tom Boy I was.

I think its all in the genes, our kids will do what they want as long as we don't put them off by sending disapproving messages if they slip from gender stereotypes.

My daughter has that OGM. I mistakenly thought that as the only girl between two brothers she would have a special place to make up for being the middle. But no, it seems not. If only she knew (I hope she does) how precious she is and as my only daughter, how much I value her friendship.

Nightowl exactly. (The last bit, not the Oliver James bit) I speak as the eldest of three, and my middle sister definitely has 'middle child syndrome'.

I can't pretend to be Oliver James OGM but I have heard it argued that siblings can never be brought up identically however much we think they are. Parents change with each child, circumstances can change, the new child's place in the family is different etc etc. Not sure about twins.

Hrmph! neglected!
I wanted to ask a question about the differences observed between siblings ostensibly brought up identically ( as mentioned in this thread) but there was no time.

OGM Thank you for that excellent summary - I have been out for Sunday lunch and have only just seen your post. I wish I could have heard him. I'm not sure about the 95 - 5% but I imagine he has some evidence to back up what seems to be an extreme position. However I can't argue with anything else you have written. I have certainly seen the effects of abuse and would agree that after 6 it becomes almost impossible to reverse the damage it causes. Hence the complexities surrounding adoption of older children (and I would say those difficulties arise much earlier than 6). I have heard before about changes in the brain - I have some difficulties with this as I feel that in some ways it 'writes children off' but I suppose I have just argued something similar myself. Interesting stuff, very sad.

I was surprised too! But he was very convincing. Methinks I need to read his books, sadly negelected thus far!

Nor me crimson

Oh, I get it now; it's Oliver James who used to write for the Observer. I can't believe it's 95% nurture, though.

Nightowl where to start. This is it in a nutshell.....

The talk was superb, and quite political, enough for one member of the audience (making assumptions, male and right wing) who complained that he had come for a talk on genes not politics!

Saying that, Oliver James' contention that nurture plays by far the greater role in our development as people, has huge political implications (95%-5% nurture/genetic influence).

The first 6 years of a child's life influence the person he/she will become and the traits he/she will develop. (Obvious really!) In fact, the moods of mothers' in the third trimester of pregnancy influence the baby. A stressed mother to be produces more cortisol and this has a detrimental effect on the baby.

He believes that abuse is the main cause of behavioural problems, it has been shown that the hippocampal part of the brain is reduced in victims of abuse.

The 'big picture', where and how we live and not placing too great an emphasis on material possessions; and this is where it got political as he mentioned 'Blatcherism' which he believes 'blighted our nation'; also have a huge effect.

He ended by saying that we need to provide good quality care for children under six, to put this ahead of the profits of a few.

I'm sorry if I have left 'bits' out, and that this is only my memory of what was said.

I just saw your post Lilygran and I think you are right, youngest granddaughter does get lots of kisses and hugs from family and friends. She definitely is a people person and will go to anyone. On that same day (we were at a country football match) she was being held by a woman she doesn't know and was hugging this woman around her neck. On the other hand her brother (4) is not the friendliest of children . He often scowls at all the grandparents and tells me I am not his girl, occasionally I am but only if he is very pleased. He tells his father he is his best friend, but if he is annoyed with him he tells him he is not his best friend anymore. Funny kids.

DD was our first born. DS was determined to do everything that DD did. Consequently he can sew, Knit, crochet and embroider. Funnily enough DS's DS does crosstitch although I don't think he has ever seen his Dad do more than sew buttons on.

I think women deal better with imposed solitude than men, though. My son was born after my daughter. Everything that looked at all pointy became a gun and he dismantled everything he could before trying to put it back together again [even his push chair one day]. He loved space ships and robots, but did have a bed full of cuddly toys. I couldn't believe how different he was to my daughter. Treating both of them [I thought] in a non gender sort of way, she did tend to have toys such as technic lego and wasn't all that bothered with dolls, although she loved her dolls house. They were both very creative. He was [still is] the tidy one.