british opinion of Arabs

Oldgreymare, "Great responses from Grans" .. that's true i didn't expect such a great responses do you know, i love flying, it's really amazing .. i enjoyed it when i was younger and traveled to OMAN

JessM, i guess general speaking about a group of people is not fair.. just like we as arabs speak about Europeans or Americans generally, i think people everywhere are different .. even among my family i'm different from my brother, father, mother .. so all arabs are not typically the same, egyptian culture slightly different than saudi's culture, than tunisian and so on ..

There is a saying about the British and the Americans: 'Two nations divided by a common language'. I believe the fact we do have a common language can make us seem more alike than we are. In fact, the British are culturally closer to continental Europeans, such as Scandinavians, French, German etc. We all have a culture of government responsibility to its people - higher taxation, free medical systems, wide-coverage social security systems, we are less openly religious, and politically less right wing etc.

We have many social freedoms in the West, but not everyone abuses those freedoms. An example is a Syrian boyfriend I had in Vienna in the mid 1960s: he was a medical student, I was a language student. I had no intention of having a serious relationship with him, but was happy to go out with him and have fun. He was astounded that I would not have sex with him. He said "But you are a Western girl, you are free to do this". I said to him "You don't understand - my Western freedom means I am free NOT to do this too". He respected my choice, but never understood!(we were both 20 years old). I remembered him recently because he came from Homs. I do hope he never went home.

It really is hard to understand another's culture and so easy to get it wrong. I have a feeling that President Bush had no understanding about Iraq when he invaded. I don't even think he knew the difference between Sunni and Shiite Islam, yet that was of the utmost importance. I remember sitting and watching the invasion on TV, with my stomach clenched in horror, hoping until the last moment that Bush and Blair would see sense. I knew that for every civilian death, dozens of people would learn to hate us. It was good to see an evil and murderous man like Saddam Hussein removed from power (I do not believe in the death penalty though), but what good did it do in the end?

People of good will from all over the world, like us on Gransnet, are the best hope for the future, because we understand what is important and what is not.

Great posts Joan.

Hello Arwa, I have just joined this thread. I have some Arab heritage as my grandmother was Palestinian and have many relatives /friends who live in the 'Arab' world but none in Egypt.

I love to read Adhaf Soueif, Her book Map of Love is one of my favourite stories. I have also read parts of her book MyCity ,Our Revolution and heard her speak of the time in Tahrir Square. Have you read any of this?

Joan, your post is amazing really, i loved it so much specially that part of your Syrian boyfriend .. do you know, that's missing in our culture.. i mean freedom (though many of women here can have a boyfriend and go out as she want) but the problem is how the society and people around her will talk about her.. unfortunately, you will see talk about her badly, i think that's problem in our society, people will never stop talking about you in every act you're doing, (if you didn't get married at age 21-30, they'll say "you have to get married .. you are too old !!" / if you are thin they'll always remind you with that and make you feel sad about yourself / also if you are fat they'll do the same..

so that's really bad as i think everyone should take care about himself and leave the others to control their life as they want.

but i wonder, if girls now will do the same thing you did with your boyfriend ??! i feel like in our days now we have less morals !! or we use our freedom in a bad way .. even here at egypt, my Mom and Dad always tells me that their days were better than ours because people were less violent, less stressed (specially in egypt) and also women could be able to wear mini skirts and dresses as they want without being annoyed by anyone in streets .. my Mom worn her veil at age 22 i guess (not like me i worn mine when i was 14)

i do like talking with all of you .. really, and want to her more from you about your culture and country, i even wish to visit the UK and get a master from a university their

i have one more question does the British people now (younger people) similar to you ?? i mean open-minded like you and can accept a conversation with an arabian person ?? always older people are more kind, have much experience in life and we always learn from them that's why i'm really glad with this conversation

hello nanaej, unfortunately i didn't read them .. i'm not very interested in reading .. i like music and drawing more

Arwa, you asked: but i wonder, if girls now will do the same thing you did with your boyfriend ??! i feel like in our days now we have less morals !! or we use our freedom in a bad way .. even here at Egypt, and you also talked about hurtful gossip and people being judgmental.

Well, back then I was afraid of my Mum, so I was very careful with the boys. Also, single girls could not get the pill in Vienna, and it was difficult in England! And if a girl slept around, or got pregnant without being married, the gossip was horrible and hurtful. I got married young, at 22, and am still married. I think there are still some girls who do not sleep with their boyfriends - but not many. Religion restricted some girls, but there is not much religious belief in the West nowadays. There are many atheists, agnostics and 'non-theists' ie people who have never been exposed to religion and never even think about it.

These days there is not much shame in getting pregnant while unmarried, but it still messes up your life, and makes it harder to get into a career because of the responsibility of motherhood. I think there is still some shame in sleeping around, but no shame in sleeping with a regular boyfriend. As long as they take precautions, I think it is a good thing, because young people are hard wired to want lots of sex!! Too much repression brings its own problems. (We have seen this in the catholic church, with supposedly celibate priests, but that's another story)

Just remembered about Hasib, my Syrian boyfriend at the time. He taught me a few Arabic words - salaam alleikum was one expression I remember. He taught me to write it in Arabic, then laughed at my babyish Arabic handwriting. I was in a very multicultural group of friends, and we all took an interest in each others cultures and languages.

I suppose I have had a very multicultural life - many of us are like this, and it helps us get along with other cultures. My two sons grew up surrounded by other cultures here in Australia - Aboriginal, Asian, European, Canadian, Samoan. My eldest son teaches 'Study of Religion' as well as Ancient History, and takes his students to synagogues, mosques, orthodox churches, Buddhist festivals, Chinese New Year, etc. He makes it his life mission to teach them to think for themselves, and to reject prejudices. Part of this is teaching them to see through the lies and half truths of the news, in order to sort of the real news from the spin.

The world is changing, inter-cultural understanding is increasing, and I think this is great. Your discourse with us on Gransnet is part of this, and I love it!

Hello again arwa - two things. Young people in the UK these days, the majority, who live in large towns and cities, live in an extremely multicultural environment. They will be in school classes with a whole mix of people. I was out the other day and walked past a primary class who were walking somewhere - there were children of african, s asian and chinese as well as white - only about 50% white. That 50-50 mix is not unusual in cities. Many UK workplaces e.g. hospitals have a similar mix. If you look at our Olympics you will see that there is a big mix in our team, with Mohammed Farah, born in E Africa, winning 2 gold medals and Jessica Ennis, who has a white mum and a dad of West Indian background, winning a gold too. So we are a melting pot these days. There are still some racial issues, mainly when immigrants keep themselves in a separate community, so understanding does not grow.
The other story I heard recently was when my son went to a wedding. It was in NZ and the bride and groom were around 30 yrs old and had been a couple for a long time. She was of UK ancestry and he was from a very Christian Maori background. And they were waiting to have intercourse until after they were married. (I was a bit surprised as it is not the norm - but it does happen)

Hallo & Welcome Awra.
When I was returning aged 8 from Australia by boat in 1955, I remember many people were very suspicious of Arabs. We were told to lock our cabins because of the people selling things from the tops of the masts of their small boats that moored alongside the ship. We arrived at night and all the shops in town were open. I remember refusing to drink Coca Cola because I though tit might be poisoned. Many books & films of an older age also portrayed Arabs as suspicious characters. Thankfully times have changed.
I have worked with some wonderful people in Jordan, Bahrain and Israel. In Israel the Arabs were working with Israeli teachers and needed a great deal of courage to counter criticism from their communities. I have always found them gentle with wonderful manners and hospitality even when they have very little themselves. What I did find difficult was the subservient way women were treated by their superiors at work & very few women were in senior positions. One woman was my secretary for the duration of my work & I found I was making up work for her to do as she was so eager to please. One day it was past her home time & I had nothing else for her to do but she had to wait another 2 hours because she had to escort a 'boss' to & from a meeting with me. I also found it hard the first time a very religious Arab man refused to shake my hand, especially as it was in England. I have met more Arabs here in England through my son-in-law & daughter & thinking about it they are all exceptionally talented - an award winning writer from Gaza, a brilliant violinist & a computer whizz-kid from Egypt.
Good luck with your studies - what you have done here shows you will go far.

I recently read a lovely book by Michael Ondaatje, called The Cat's Table - about some boys on a boat in the early 1950s getting sent to England to school from "Ceylon". Wonderful description of going through the Suez canal at night. It is fiction, but some of it is so vivid, it must be based on his own experience.
Of course parts of his famous book The English Patient are set in wartime Egypt.

I recently treated myself to Daniel Barenboim's 'Beethoven for All' C.D. The symphonies are played by the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra.
The orchestra is composed of musicians from Israel, Palestine and other Arab countries.
Daniel Barenboim says...... ' people who listen to each other, both musically and in all other ways, can achieve greater things'
This is my philosophy too.
It is good to hear what you have to say arwa

joan, a multicultural life is really interesting .. i wish to have a life like this, i used to deal with people from other arab countries like Oman, Jordan and Syria when i was young, that affected my character and made me more flexible in dealing with people, though i'm an introvert and not very social .. i believe that one should make his own opinion about everything not just build his opinion on others thoughts and beliefs .. and that's why i'm enjoying speaking with you to know more about your culture..

we also had a thought of European families, which is, people at the age 18 have their own life and separate from their parents (i mean they rarely see each other again) .. but from speaking with you, i guess this thought is not right .. am i right now ???

Oh Arwa - it is so very wrong about the separation between young adults and parents! Many continue to live at home until they have graduated from university, (my sons did this) or finished their apprenticeship, or simply until they earn enough to leave. Some never leave until they marry. Then they continue to see their parents a lot. Our two often ring their Dad for advice, even though they are aged 30 and 33, and often come for dinner. Then when they have children, so many rely on the grandparents for many aspects of child care.

They do of course have their own lives, and often have a different philosophy of life, but that is simply time moving on and young ones changing with the times much more than their parents.

Of course, in some dysfunctional families children get out as quickly as they can, and never come back, just as some difficult children leave their devastated parents and never come back, but these are exceptions.

hello JessM, i guess immigrants keep themselves in a separate community, because they are afraid from the reaction of society around them.. that's not right for sure.. because they may leave a good impression in people around them and make good relationships with people ..

hello GadaboutGran, i guess we the Arabs have a problem with Israel from years ago, because of the Palestinian war, it's so sad to see people dying everyday.. and also see Arabs working in Israel that's why "they needed a great deal of courage to counter criticism from their communities."

for me i don't mind working with an Israeli person if he/she is a good individual though i'm against what Israel as a country do to the Palestinians

hello Oldgreymare, i totally agree with your philosophy, if we didn't listen and discuss our opinions we won't understand each other and we won't achieve anything together.. it's always good to know how the person your are dealing with think.. a group of people with different cultures can make a better combination.. just like music, we have some arab singers mixed oriental music with trans music and it presents a great combination..

Joan, that's great.. mostly like families here in egypt and other arab countries.. you know what mada us think like that the american and some english movies which always reflect the wrong image of families there..

Hi again arwa,

I am off to see my aunt tomorrow it is her 88th birthday. She left Palestine in 1947 with her family, including her brother my father. He died in 1989.
The family all try to meet up as often as we can! Her son, my cousin Kareem, is over from Doha with his sons to visit her ..so I hope we will have a good celebration. She has not been well recently so has not been cooking..but she makes good arabic food including melokhia..one of my favourites!

nanaej, i wish you a great time with your aunt and i wish she gets better soon.. melokhia is very delicious, i remember that our Germany teacher told us that when she visited germany they thought that melokhia is a soup but here in egypt we don't drink it, we eat it with an egyptian bread..

arwa where and when did you learn to write in English? Do you also have opportunities to speak English?

Good morning, arwa. Although there are some very stupid people in Britain, who hate anyone who is not exactly like themselves, in general the British are very happy to welcome immigrants and visitors - much more so than the French, for example. I worked in a very large government office in London and we had people from many different countries and cultures. We all worked happily together and also went out together for lunch or after work.
Unfortunately, some young men from different cultures think they need not respect British women because they do not understand our freedom. The newspapers like to show the worst examples of girls getting drunk and behaving badly, but most young women want to be in a happy relationship with a steady partner. I have a grand-daughter of 24 who has two young children, lives with her fiance until they can afford to get married, works hard to help pay the bills and still manages to study at home for an Open University degree. I have two other grand-daughters of 20 and 19 who are both engaged and also taking degrees. They have been with their fiances since they were all at school together.

We do find it hard to understand how women in some cultures are treated as having less human rights than men and I think this causes some resentment because we think it is wrong. We do understand how hard it is for women to rebel against the system.

Your English is excellent - it is so good to hear about your life. Perhaps some of your friends would like to join in too?

Arwa, it's good to catch up with this thread. Your thoughts about young people here having their own life and being separate from their parents are perhaps influenced by distorted media. Certainly my children adored their grandmothers and were devastated when they died and I think that's quite usual. Most young people are very close to their families, in fact we have a saying which calls them 'boomerang children'. They often leave home to study at university then return, then they are back and forth until they meet their partner and can afford to buy or rent a home of their own. My children finally set up home with their spouses at 30, and we are all very close. I think that in any society strong family and community ties make for a strong and stable society.

As someone else said it would be lovely if you could persuade other members of your family or your friends to join in here.

Good morning arwa. I too have problems with the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis, just as I did when Tony Blair and George Bush took the action they did against Iraq.
There was a strong group of people who protested at the time with banners saying:
'Not in my name'
That is how I rationalise things, that is, that politicians may take actions that are 'not in my name'.
In the town where I live there is a group called 'Friends of Palestine' who meet regularly. At the moment they are advocating a boycott of Israeli goods.