Older people's 'jobs market' is robust

So how is it that I'm still looking for a job?

Exactly phoenix! Makes you cross to read it!

Perhaps they think we could all survive on the pay of a dinner lady? Or a tesco checkout worker?

No disrespect to any of those, but the pay is hardly a living wage.

I don't understand how people not retiring does not affect unemployment in the younger age groups. Surely there are a finite number of jobs.

There are not a finite number of jobs, if that was so most of the population would be unemployed. If we had stuck with the number of jobs we had 50 years ago think of all the increased population and women who would be jobless. Generally speaking the number of jobs in the economy has been growing steadily for 100s of years. Occupations come and go, very few butchers, bakers and candlestick makers now (although numbers are growing) hundreds of thousands of supermarket employees, and those working in IT. DH and I both worked in branches of our profession that didnt exist when we left school, DD has worked in two different professions, neither of which existed when she left school. In the short term numbers do fluctuate, but long term the movement is ever upwards.

Anyway why should older workers always be picked on when jobs are in short supply. They have every right to work for their livings as anybody else, why not say that mothers of children under 5 should stay at home or that men between 35-40 should stay at home. Every one should have an equal right to work.

What we could have done without is a government whose laissez-faire attitude to finance and banking helped to get us into this economic mess and another government that thinks you can increase your crop by eating the seed corn.

Its all to do with the consevative attitude that we should all be financially responsible for ourselves, which is fine and dandy but then why do they take a massive chunk of money each month from our wage packet.

To pay for all those things we take for granted in a modern society, health service, education, roads, fire service, police, guarding our borders, looking after British Nationals abroad, pensions, social security, etc etc.

OK so maybe I chose the wrong word when I said finite but there are a limited number. If people don't free up jobs by retiring where are the jobs for the younger people to come from. I'm not saying people should be forced to retire but neither should they feel obliged to work. When you've worked for 40 years you've earned your retirement if that's what you want.

The long term trend in jobs is consistent growth, even though obviously the line is wavy and we are currently in a downturn. The jobs the young do are not necessarily the same as the old leave, I am not talking experience and seniority here but actual industrial sector.

I worked for a large energy company and when I left, aged 53. I was the oldest member of a staff of nearly 500, including directors. This was because the subsidiary I worked for was in a sector of the energy market that required new technical skills skills that very few older engineers had but many new graduates did. This is only one example of how new industries bring new jobs that younger workers can fill. the avarage age of farmers is now, I think, around 50, because it is an industry that does not attract young people.

We have had an influx of immigrants into the country in recent years who have taken jobs that could be filled by British youngsters but employers have preferred the immigrants because they are better educated and have a good work ethic that is frequently missing in young British job seekers.

What an interesting post, Flickety - I wish we had a 'like' or 'approve' button.

Greatnan, thank you

Point taken FlicketyB. Looking back I was generalising too much.

Wish someone would tell that to the employers....or perhaps I am applying to the wrong ones...

When I went to university to read economics the first essay we were set asked: If, in times of high unemployment, one person by constant effort can find a job, why cannot every unemployed person? The answer is self evident and hasn't changed, if more people are looking for jobs than there are jobs available there will always be some people unemployed, and not necessarily the least skilled or least able.

This does not make it any easier for those left unemployed, and there must be special concern for young people trying to get their first job, particularly when we are in such a longstanding period of recession and cutbacks.

One thing the Thatcher government did do that was of great help to youngsters was the introduce the Youth Training Scheme, YTS, where the government paid young people marginally above the benefit rate to go to work and get some training, usually on relatively low skill socially useful work. It gave young people a chance to experience a work environment and develop work related skills like good time keeping, regular attendance at work, knuckling down to doing a job which they may not particularly enjoy plus some practical skills that made them more easily employable when the scheme ended and the economy picked up. I do think it wouldbe a good idea to re-introduce something similar.

Oh dear FlickertyB I really do have to disagree with you about Maggie's YTS. It may have been beneficial to the few but the majority of my friends were used as skivvies for six months before being dumped back onto the dole as the next skivvy was taken on. One of my friends spent six months putting leaflets into envelopes and sticking stamps on. Where was the training in that? Another made the tea and washed the pots. She spent her day in the staff room...alone most of the time. Again where was the training?

I have no problem with training schemes as long as real training takes place. Also the trainee shouldn't be used to fill real vacancies on the cheap.

I am sure some YTS schemes were pretty shoddy but not all were. The careers of a number of archaeologists were started when they were recruited on to a YTS schemes undertaking archaeological excavations on development sites before the introduction of commercial archaeology and developer funding. They started as sulky 16 year olds, became fascinated by their work and found a career. Many of those that did not make a career of it were left with a life long satisfying leisure interest.

YTS(2) could be a revamped scheme that did include training and some qualification like an NVQ at the end. They shouldnt be cheap labour to replace paid jobs but in these days of cutbacks and reduced services there is much that is not being done that could be done by YTS(2) trainees.

For example for some years I worked as a volunteer Field Advisor for what is now Age UK. The charity also had paid staff doing the same work but demand exceeded the number of workers the charity could afford to employ and the volunteers took up the slack. I am sure a revamped YTS scheme could work the same way.

I have no problem with charities or companies providing training as long as it's well planned with a recognised qualification of some sort at the end of it but I fear that some companies will take advantage of free/cheap labour like last time. A neighbour's son is on a placement at a large supermarket working full time for his benefit money and his fellow workers have lost their overtime because it's cheaper for the company to use my friend's son for extra shifts than pay proper wages to their permanent staff. There has to be rules and checks put in place to make sure this doesn't happen. This isn't a small company fighting to keep its head above water but a major international company.

It's not the work experience for his dole money that I object to but the way it's been used by the company to cut wages costs.

Hi FlicktyB

You said ''why should older workers be picked on when jobs are in short supply''.

I worked in London and when my employers wanted to make people redundant they looked at people first with long service who were eligible for an immediate pension to make the redundancies as painless as possible.
My turn came and I looked at the pension I was paid with immediate effect and also the redundancy payment and I could not get out of the door fast enough.
I phoned my daughters and they said I will be coming to Birmingham to join them and my father and my house was up for sale the next day.
I got another job with the council which lasted just over 5 years only 3 miles from the house and I got another small pension and redundancy payment.
Because I did not have to pay expensive train fares I don't think I lost much money and I have got a better quality of life except for the pests who think I should have not inherited my parents house.

Frank

Well, Frank all I can say is you were bloody lucky! I was made redundant after 6 years in my role, no pension, although I did get some redundancy payment.

I have a whacking great mortgage on a rather modest house. By the way, the mortgage is interest only, currently paying over £500 per month, can't see any way of ever being able to pay of the initial amount borrowed.

I have not managed to find a job despite looking for one since last March (I refuse to count the bloody miserable three weeks I spent at the caravan park) and to cap it all, according to the bloody powers that be, I don't qualify for JSA because according to them I have insufficient NI contributions! Over the last 2 tax years, according to my P60's I have paid in excess of £6.5k in NI alone.

Frank, many times I have considered your point of view, and even sort of "fought your corner" when I have felt that you may have been misunderstood, but I now realise that you have NEVER made a single post showing empathy for any other members situation, rather it's been a case of what I can only describe as an "I'm all right Jack" smug kind of attitude.

If I have got this wrong, then I apologise. I'm certainly not going to trawl back through God knows how many posts or threads to be sure of my facts.

I'm glad that all seems to be hunky dory in the world of Frank and I hope that you appreciate your good fortune.

I'm really sorry to rant, and it my usual way, but I really don't think you have ever offered a shred of comfort, empathy or warmth for any other member here.

I am prepared to stand corrected if wrong.

Bugger, meant "it isn't my usual way".

Hunter, I too left work on a very generous voluntary redundancy/early retirement scheme, but, generally speaking, those days are gone. Now many older people want to work longer for personal and financial reasons and have a right not to targetted for redundancy.

However as the original link suggested many employers prefer older employees because they are more reliable and experienced. This does not mean that every older person can get a job. I certainly found that a woman in her 50s was only of interest if she wanted to stack shelves, and indeed I would have done that if my financial need had been desperate. Fortunately,it wasnt, and instead I used my professional skills working as a volunteer with a charity.

There is the concern that older people working keeps younger people out of jobs - and in a few cases this may be true, but my arguments opposing this have been discussed above.

Phoenix. . I hope you do have some luck with finding another job soon - you also need one which uses your skills or the work is not fulfilling. I have been lucky enough not to find myself in your position but watched my stepson looking for work - he would take ANY job - it ground him down with relentless searching and showing the stupid proof he had been looking himself.

I had worked at out local medical centre for several years, but was 'retired' at 60 due to practice policy, everyone had to retire at 60 no matter what job they had. [this was a year before the EEC edict that forbade that rule]I did appeal as I still had a few years of my mortgage to pay, to no avail. I heard later that as there were several other ladies behind me coming up for 60, they were worried about being top-heavy in older people. Well of course they can't do that now and they do have several 65 year olds working there and very well too.
I knew I wouldn't be able to get a similaar job or anything like it at 60 years old. I did try and I didn't even get an acknowledgement to my application form.
However, I approached our local Waitrose and was given a part time job on the tills. I hated it although the people in shop were lovely - it was just soooo boring. We moved to newer premises and started our Internet Shopping department, I applied to join and was taken on - now 4 years later I'm as happy as can be and really look forward to going into work.
There are several over 60's in the shop in various roles. At my recent appraisal my manager said his 'oldies' are the hardest workers, reliable and take less sick days.

phoenix - too right!