After last week and Mrs Thatcher's demise

nanaej 'capitalism creates the needy' As opposed to?

As long as it is efficiency Sel and not exploitation that makes the pitch look good! I am not naive and know there are some excellent businesses out there with ethical practice and good moral values but there are also a great number who are out to make as much profit for the people at the top of the firm and sod the other people in the way!

We need socialist capitalism! Efficiently run & profitable businesses with all profit going into the shared state pot. And I'll start by inventing the flying pig

nanaej business with all profit going into the shared state pot. Isn't there a name for that?

But we are dependant on other countries for our energy, and without energy we can do nothing. They can put up the price at will and we can do nothing about it. One good thing we are good at is inventing things; but a lot of inventing happens at Universities and less and less young people are going to University because they can't afford it. As for manufacturing; a couple of years ago our local company, Bombardier lost a contract to a German country. In fact it would have meant the end of train/engine manufacturing in this country. The knock on effect in Derby would have been a disaster, with lots of feeder companies going down with them. But it turned out that there were several things different about the quotes. The German company were allowed to factor in such things as job creation/losses. They also had interest free loans from the German Govt to develop the product. On top of that, their product was still a prototype and could have incurred further costs when up and running whereas ours was a tried and tested product. Eventually Bombardier were awarded the contract, therefore saving not only a lot of jobs but also the whole train making industry [and, when it's gone it's gone forever] and the cost, socially is a great one.

I also think we are a country with a 'sick' workforce now they don't have such good union representation. Even the rich industrialists of the Industrial Revolution understood that they made more money if they looked after their employees [there's an interesting programme about Josiah Wedgewood later this week, I believe that touches on that]. I'm sure my job is under threat because they've taken on several apprentices at work, working for a minimum wage of less than £3 an hour [that's what I've been told although it surely can't be correct can it?].

Tegan I understand what you're saying but we no longer can grant contracts to British companies. We're in the EU. And since it's inception both the Tories and the Labour party have been somewhat ambivalent - pro or anti. But, regardless, we can't turn back the clocks and we have to compete in an European, and sometimes, global market. And yes, we are good at inventing things but have, historically been hopeless at profiting from those inventions.

The thing is, we are going backwards. With the increasing use of "Zero Hours Contracts", we're going back to the time when workers could be picked up and dropped whenever it suited employers. In the past these employment practices were used primarily with "blue collar" jobs but eventually fairer employment practices were introduced. That type of contract was then only used for casual workers, such as students working in restaurants and pubs. Now these types of insecure working conditions apply to all types of workers, including white collar workers and professionals. FT.com reports that "in the future there are probably only going to be a few uber professional white collar sectors that might remain untouched."

This is what Tories want - to have a large pool of unemployed people who are so desperate for work that they will accept any conditions - Zero Hours Contracts, no sick pay, minimum wage, etc. Now that might not bother you Sel, or some of the other people on here. You may reason that you are nearing retirement of have retired and so it won't affect you. But don't imagine our children and grandchildren will be immune from these changes - unless they have very wealthy parents, of course.

Meanwhile, the government is encouraging ordinary people to turn on one another and blame each other for their decreasing standard of living, while the privatised utilities hike up their prices at the same time as making larger and larger profits, and big companies avoid paying taxes.

I don't call any of this progress.

And, by the way, I don't think it's necessary for a person to have experienced great hardship to understand what it feels like and to think that what is happening is wrong. My husband and I have a comfortable lifestyle, but I don't subscribe to the "I'm all right Jack" attitude. Anyway, in the long run, people may find that they're not as all right as they thought they were.

Eloethan I am not quite sure which time zone you are in. Every company has to compete for business. To win that competition they are competing against European or global companies. Whatever you may wish for, it doesn't matter because there are other countries who are prepared to bid and will win contracts with a work force who find conditions here, very comfortable.

"This is what Tories want - to have a large pool of unemployed people who are so desperate for work that they will accept any conditions - Zero Hours Contracts, no sick pay, minimum wage, etc."

God, you've got a jaundiced view of the human race Eleothan! I think you might be even worse than me.

"I wish I loved the Human Race;
I wish I loved its silly face;
I wish I liked the way it walks;
I wish I liked the way it talks;
And when I'm introduced to one,
I wish I thought "What Jolly Fun!"

Yep! We've definitely got something in common!

Elothean you say, 'this is what the Tories want' beggars belief. Labour encouraged mass immigration, flooding the labour market with people who could run rings round own home grown, English speaking school leavers. Wouldn't it have been better if Labour, in the last thirteen years had actually educated a workforce?

I don't like the thought of youngsters being educated to be a workforce. Just educate them. Every last little sod of 'em.

But we're employing people for £2.65 per hour. I can't quite believe it but that's what I've been told. How can anyone in this day and age be expected to work for that amount?

Tegan they can't - there is a minimum wage. If an employer is paying £2.65ph, then it just wrong.

j08 that's why we educate our children, to work. I told mine to forget garrets and thinking. Just get down to it

Minimum wage for a 16 year old apprentice is £2.65.

www.connexionslive.com/Employment/Employers/EmploymentLegislation/NationalM...
www.connexionslive.com/Employment/Employers/EmploymentLegislation/NationalM...

Darn it; won't copy.

Sounds as if N Power are the latest tax dodgers as well .

Tegan It's late but to my mind if anyone is paying an apprentice £2.65 ph there's something very wrong. I'll check out your link tomorrow. I'm hoping they might get other benefits? The minimum wage is enshrined in law.

I totally believe in non state controlled industries. Maybe it's an ideological thing. I believe in competition. I remember the days of State owned industries and shudder. Some on here will think those were the glory days. I remember Britain being a grey, ailing country riven by strikes. I wonder where we would be today if we'd carried on down that path. One thing for sure, we wouldn't have been the industrial power house we were in Victorian times, there are now countries competing that are truly hungry for business.

I also have a jaundiced view, jingle, especially when I hear about Nestle selling powdered milk in Africa, or the very clever ways in which hugely profitable companies avoid paying tax. I think some people look at big businesses with rose-tinted spectacles. Most have only improved safety or other working conditions because they were forced - left to themselves they would still be putting profits before people. The privatisation of the railways has led to big profits for some former managers and chaos for travellers. Our energy and water companies are mostly in foreign hands. Contracting out of the cleaning of hospitals to the lowest tender has led to appalling standards in some places. I could go on, but I am sure you are all sick to death of these political rants.
It is a shame that immigration has been mentioned - I hoped we could avoid that particular red herring.

Surely the state should not have to pay benefits to somebody because their employer is not paying them a living wage?

My friend's grandson is being paid £2.65 working as an apprentice in a recruitment agency.

Sadly Milton Friedman monetarism didn't die with him and it won't die with its great fan Thatcher.

When DD3 graduated she couldn't find any work. It was a chicken and egg situation. No job because no experience: no experience because no job so she worked for a company to gain experience and earned £0 for 6 months. this happened 6 years ago, when there was a Labour Government