More thought provoking

Nationalism - 'nuff said...

Did you read it, feetle. The writer is not a nationalist. If you haven't read the article you've been judgemental in exactly the way the writer is trying to get people to stop and actually think about.

Closed mind syndrome.

Sounds quite a logical and well argued piece BUT whenever we see EDL demonstrations etc on the TV they look and sound like thugs. I find it difficult to have any sympathy for them. Similarly the Islamist crowds who yell and scream at the repatriation of British soldiers. Unfortunately extremism on the whole attracts young men and the more our consumer society alienates them - no jobs, no homes, no future - they will be drawn to ideologies at the extremist end of the political spectrum, be they Islamist or EDL supporters.

I've read the blog, and the author has certainly raised a large number of points, one or two of which I'll comment on.

I think it's true that there has been a confusion between anti Muslim and Islamophobia.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to speak out against extremism wherever it is found.

I can understand the frustration of mainly young working class men at their political powerlessness and the way in which political parties and many pressure groups are organised and run and whose membership is largely middle class.

However, the EDL is made up of loose confederation of football hooligans (many of the supporters have a long list of previous) far right extremists and assorted hangers on who find it provides a group to belong to and an opportunity for noisy and possibly violent activity in the marches which they organise.

The author also questions the use of 'Muslim areas'. Well, like it or not, this country, and indeed most countries, have localities where people of similar culture and background live close to each other. This is the case whether it's Hampstead or Hackney, or the Wirral or Warrington. And of course it's provocative when demonstrations are planned in those areas.

And finally, it seems to me that if any members (and the EDL don't have members, which makes it tricky to analyse) are genuine about opposing extreme Islamicism, there is no surer way to drive moderate Muslims into it than the bahaviour of the EDL

Wiki has a considered article on the EDL with many interesting links and references.

Well on your recommendation I have read it Bags and I found it both rational and logical. It's certainly not "Nationalism" as feetlebaum dismissed it as but rather, thought-provoking. I found myself nodding in agreement and it has altered my view of the EDL somewhat.

I thought of Northern Ireland at the mention of the 'Muslim areas'. I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong) that the 'establishment' protected the 'right' of Orangemen to march through 'Catholic areas' of Belfast and Londonderry. Yes, it's provocative and I don't think such things should be encouraged. But I think the blogger's point is about ghettoisation (is that a word) and its dangers.

I think what concerns me is the growing support for Ukip and the EDL. And I think the blogger, like me, wants to get to the bottom of why this is happening. That is, to really understand what is driving people to what is seen from the outside as a more right-wing (and, on the face of it, unattractive) outlook.

It's an imprtant point he's making. I admire his courage in tackling such issues.

............mmmm thought provoking! Particularly like the Voltaire quote "to learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize", I hadn't heard that one before, but then there are big gaps in my education, never to late to fill them I guess. I'm always amazed at something written, in this case, around a couple of hundred year ago, is as profound today as it was then.

Great piece, bags. I'm confused by your question as to ' what is driving people to what is seen, from the outside as a more right wing outlook.
Simple. These people feel that nobody else is listening to their concerns about immigration. ( think Gorden Brown blunder) its not about colour, it's about numbers.

I listened to the first bit of last night's Question Time on iPlayer this morning. One of the panel was an articulate member of Ukip. It seemed to me from what he said that Ukip supporters are interested in more than the problem (perceived or otherwise) of immigration. He spoke about energy prices, for instance, and the costs of welfare.

This is what worries me: people think Ukip is only about immigration and that all EDL supporters are racists. Frankly, I think that is wrong on both counts and that the blogger would seem to agree.

Whether one wants to support or agrees with the aims of either organisation is a separate issue.

I wonder if so many people would be concerned about immigration if the country was doing well economically - if everyone who wanted a job could have one, if everyone who wanted to own their own home could afford it. In past history when things are tough people look for a scapegoat. Political parties who suggest we should pay more taxes to provide better services and to stimulate the economy get short shift from the voters so I cannot see things getting better any time soon.

Do any of you know any EDL "members"?
Have you just read the one article, or have you read the rest?
It sounds to me like the KKK but without hoods.

I must go back and read it again. Must have missed the KKK bit.

No, petra, I think the point about provoking thought might have been missed by the previous poster

No, it provoked my thought enough to do a websearch for the EDL and racism. I have been reading about the EDL for at least 15 minutes. I do not like what I read.
Every other political group has a membership of people who wish to be counted. What are the EDL "members" so afraid of that they will not admit to being members of the group? The KKK hid their faces so they could not be recognised, just like the EDL.
As I asked previously, do any of you here know any EDL "members"?
I know people who belong to most other parties you care to name and are not ashamed to say so.

Did you read what the rational members of the EDL have to say, jend? You know, the ones who aren't afraid to acknowledge their membership and who speak openly about what they think in a reasonable manner (non-one is saying you or anyone else has to agree, but that true of any poltical group). There may not be a lot of them but they are the ones I'm concerned with, not the thugs, as I think I made clear earlier.

This isn't about EDL thugs. It's about what reasonable members of EDL stand for and why they feel they have to speak out.

If I blamed all muslims for atrocities commited by a few terrorist thugs who happen to be muslims, you'd probably call me an islamophobe. You can't logically or reasonably do that. In the same way you can't logically or reasonably dismiss the whole of the EDL or Ukip for the trangressions of a minority of thugs.

Sorry, I got in a tangle in my last para. I meant you can't call someone an islamophobe if they speak out against muslim terrorists, because the vast majority of muslims are not terrorists but just normal ordinary people. I have no reason to suppose the same isn't true of EDL supporters.

JenD, I don't 'know' any members, that's not possible when there is no membership. But I do live in an area which has been targetted by the EDL. It's not pleasant. Some of the faces on the marches are easily recognised. What does concern me is that a number of young men feel the need to join these demonstrations to express their anger. I think it's sad that mainstream political parties do not make an effort to channel dissatisfaction into useful action.

Since reading thatbags last message I have again been trying to find any good things about the EDL.
The blog that we were directed to at the beginning states that the author does not know if he/she is a member or not - sorry, supporter. However, the author does say that providing the EDL remains committed to condemning violence, s/he sees no reason to condemn the EDL.
What about looking at the news. Only this month a member beat up someone in Hull. A former leader - a Sikh - has absconded after being found guilty of beating up a garage owner.
A picture of Tommy Robinson shows his face, but he is supported by four other members wearing black balaclavas.
Which moderate members do you wish me to read about, Thatbags?
Can't find any.

I was surprised the other day when,during a chat with my ex who is a lifelong Labour Party supporter [as am I] he said that, of all the parties he had more time for Ukip than the others. When [aghast] I questioned him about it he explained that they were actually the only party that said what they stood for and were honest about it. He would never dream of voting for them, but I did understand [once I'd got over the shock] what he meant.

Mice said: "What does concern me is that a number of young men feel the need to join these demonstrations to express their anger."

I think this is what the blog is saying too. And that we need to listen to them to find out why they are angry. Actually listen, not just dismiss them as thugs.

I read somewhere recently that is was people demonstrating against the EDL deminstrators who caused the trouble and got arrested at a recent event, and not the EDL demonstrators themselves. I'll see if I can find that again.

tegan, I've had a similar experience and was (am) similarly shocked, but also felt that I understood. It is a weird experience!

www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/2993/edl-thug-spared-jail-for-violent-attack-on-an
Link to the Hull attack, bags.

Ths blogger says it well (I suggest you read this jend if you wish to understand the blogger's point better) here in a different blog post:

"The EDL aren’t angels; everyone knows that. But when an organisation is demonised beyond all proportion we run into trouble. Non-angelic organisations occasionally speak the truth, and to dismiss those truths and thereby deny reality is very dangerous indeed. If you dismiss everything an unpleasant organisation says simply because of who that organisation is, you dismiss the rare nuggets of truth that emanate from them. People aren’t stupid. Once they realise some of those messages are true even though the organisation has been demonised to the hilt, do you know what’s likely to happen? They’re more likely to believe the bullshit messages too. Accept the truth, don’t let the EDL monopolise it, and focus on the bullshit.

This is what happens when decent people fail to speak out about Islamism: unsavoury organisations like the EDL fill the void. The increasing prominence of the EDL provides all the more reason to speak out about Islamism, not less reason. There is a human rights-based, non-racist and specifically anti-racist alternative to the EDL. Organisations such as the National Secular Society and One Law For All are excellent examples."

enlightenmentlover.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/time-to-be-honest-about-the-english-defence-league/