Poor Kids

That stuff is so very sad how easy is it to crush child's spirit.

I knew a mother or two who could not cope with an under five being a child and creating mess and disorder. It was one of those houses where its not obvious a child lives there.
The toys are all in the bedroom and "if the child wants to play with them they bring them down one at a time and take them back." With small kids things don't work like that.

Exactly- many of those kids who are action/experience deprived are from very middle-class homes. Where we used to live when kids where toddlers, our house was the smallest on the estate. The kids opposite had a play-room- but they were not allowed to play in it - and it was always so so perfect. The mum said to me one day 'You don't mind if they all play at yours, don't you- because your place is always a mess anyway' - I took it as one of the best compliments ever. Yes, glue and pasta, bits of string and felt, lego, home-made play-dough, finger paints, and so much more. We had not play-room- but our kitchen was great for the job. And we didn't live in a pigsty either- but our house was always really 'lived and loved in'.

She once asked me how our toddler could eat so well with a fork? I was surprised. She said she makes her toddler put his hands behind his back and feeds him, so it makes less mess. How on earth was he going to learn!
He could not draw, paint or cut shapes with scissors- as of course poor mite was never allowed to try...

Re mobile phones. Humans have always had a need to communicate with each other. Look how w e come on here. Being a young mum at home used to be a lonely thing. Thank God for technology. And if a call comes in when you are out walking you can hardly ignore it, even if you wanted to. You only actually that particular mum very briefly.

Kids are often more resilient than we realise. I was in a shop yesterday and a mother was really barking at her kids, again and again. They were doing no harm, just playing like kids do. Each time she yelled at them, back they came. And then started all over again. Big grins on their faces. They were fine.

Do some posters on here feel they were better middle class parents than others?

I met one if my closest friends when we took our DD's to the same mother and toddler group as 3-4 yr olds. The first time I went to her house for a play date, I was surprised when she said to her DD "take X upstairs to play". They lived in average 3 bed semi and her DD who was an only child had her bed and clothes in the box room and the spare double was her playroom. She wasn't allowed to bring toys downstairs. I wasn't happy about two 3 yr olds playing out of sight but didn't like to say anything.

I've seen and heard all sorts. People screaming and effing and blinding at their children. One episode in particular really worried me a few years ago. I was in the make up section of a big store and there was a young woman with a new born baby in a buggy. The child was screaming and screaming, its little face was going purple, you could hear it all around the store. The shop assistants were all going over to look. The mother didn't glance at the child once, she was just picking up make up and testing lipsticks etc. It was horrible. I was in the shop for about 20 minutes and this was constant. It's very hard in these circumstances for anyone to intervene, I just admit I didn't. She looked like a very decent presentable young woman. Post natal depression maybe? I've also been on buses where there is a mother and a young child and the child is asking the mother questions and she doesn't even acknowledge the child.

All of the parents quoted on this thread seem to be from the lower orders.

You'd be surprised petallus - those of us who have worked with young children for decades see first-hand that poor parenting canv come from all classes as, indeed, can excellent parents.

Do you think the Queen neglected Charles? After being abroad for months, she met him with a handshake.

I'm not a fan of Prince Charles but each time I hear him recount that episode and stating that what he really wanted was hug, my heart goes out to him. It probably explains a lot about him. Thank goodness that he, like a lot of parents, learned from it and is the exact opposite with his own children.

Being a young mum at home used to be a lonely thing.

Not for everyone - in my experience, young mums have friends and spend time at each others houses, or out all together, with the children playing (picnics, parks, back gardens, living rooms)

Thank God for technology. And if a call comes in when you are out walking you can hardly ignore it, even if you wanted to.

Why can't you ignore it? Just because the phone rings doesn't mean you have to answer it. The mobile phone is there for convenience, not so that your day can be interrupted at the whim of others and if you do answer it, and it isn't important, why can't the caller be told 'sorry, I'm with the children at the moment, I'll call you back later'.

Oh for heaven's sake! Of course I don't think that poor parenting is confined to the working classes.

I do think, however, that the type of abuse which involving screaming profanities in public, dragging the child along, smacking and threatening is more likely to be found amongst the working classes, although only a small percent would do it.

Generally speaking, the middle classes are far too well brought up to make a scene in public. The abuse that goes on in these families would be of a different kind, coldness, rejection, sending the children off to boarding school at age 7 etc.

I'm generalising.

I've never regretted my working class upbringing. I've often thought that the middle class way of doing things has a sort of deadening effect on the spark of life. All that emphasis on being well behaved and not being too extreme about anything!

That's a very stereotypical view of the so-called middle class Petallus. I know many as so-called middle class family who gave plenty of spark and zest and fun. In fact children being 'well behaved' (never realised that was a negative before) often means they are allowed more freedom and opportunities.

as of

Forget the typos you get the gist!

Why does it come across to me as being very rude when posters pluck bits of other people's posts out just to argue with the opinions others put forward. Comes across as lazy too.

When I mentioned the possible loneliness of the SAHM, I did say "used to be". I think things have changed now.

I suppose that's going in italics now.

I suppose that's going in italics now

Yep

Why does it come across to me as being very rude when posters pluck bits of other people's posts out just to argue with the opinions others put forward. Comes across as lazy too.

Lazy? It takes more effort to highlight the bits that are being referred to. It's more lazy to assume that people know what you are talking about when talking about a specific part of another FMs post. Why you have such a bee up your rear-end about it, I have no idea. I dislike the way you don't have the courtesy to use people's names or highlight bits you are referring to but I don't whine on about it - I just accept it's the way you prefer to post.

When I mentioned the possible loneliness of the SAHM, I did say "used to be". I think things have changed now.

I was a SAHM - then, not now. And you didn't say 'possible loneliness' to begin with - you stated is more as a general fact.

Quoting hollydaze, "The mobile phone is there for convenience, not so that your day can be interrupted at the whim of others and if you do answer it, and it isn't important, why can't the caller be told 'sorry, I'm with the children at the moment, I'll call you back later'."

Rubbish. The mobile phone is simply there for connecting with other people, for whatever reason. Would a mother really have to make her kids the be all and end all of her existence. A dodgy path to follow, for various reasons.

What if you were in the house when you were phoned. Would you have to refuse to talk just because your kids were on the room with you?

I remember many years ago when I was doing a social psychology course there was a piece of research that looked at mother-child interactions in public. It found the overwhelming majority of interactions were negative("don't do that", "don't touch" "be quiet" etc) . I have noticed since then that this hasn't changed much.

I still wish you'd use names, HollyDaze - sometimes it's hard to have to keep trawling back through posts to find out whose post you've highlighted just a bit of...

Do you really bother Ana? Blowed if I do.

I don't think we can generalise about which 'order' is more guilty of emotional abuse and lack of interaction with their children.
I am just confused as to why a mother would take a child to the beach if she did not want him to get sand all over him. Of course, this could just be a snapshot of part of the day - perhaps they had had a lovely time on the beach and she had spent ages getting the sand off him and getting him dressed ready to go home and he went hurtling off - who knows.

Can't excuse the mother in the second scenario though!

The floor in the mall sounds fascinating - where is it, mrsmopp?

I think it's still possible to be a lonely SAHM, jings, if you're on maternity leave and all your friends are working.

petallus it's interesting that you say the middle-class way of life (whatever that is) has a deadening effect. Orwell said exactly the same thing 80 years ago. Plus ca change