The man on the top of the Clapham omnibus

Galen Coming back to your original question, the logic I would apply is this. It's a bit easier if you turn it around.
The opposite of 'cannot use a bath or shower' is 'can use a bath or shower'.
So I would argue that if the applicant can use either a bath or a shower, she shouldn't get the points. She doesn't have to be able to use both of them to not get the points.
IYSWIM
But I agree with GrannyTwice that the issue is really whether or not help is required.

I read it like you. My judge disagreed. The full time judge agreed with me as did another judge. It had to be up to the tribunal to decide. We decided ( me and the lay member) to use my interpretation.
This goes to show just one of the problems we are having with PIP

Agreed, mishap. So demeaning.
The toilet needs and incontinence was particularly so. Awful questions.
Then after filling in the forms, they didn't believe you and sent round a doctor or equivalent to watch.

Eighteen months ago, I gave up being a CAB adviser because of the so-called 'reforms' of the benefits system. This thread confirms that I made the right decision!

I think they should award

Filling in the form unaided: 100 points
Filling in the form with help: 75 points

How many should I get for having to interpret it all? And you don't even know about the 50% of the time rule or if one descriptor is fulfilled for part of the time and another for part of the time. Added to which its all so badly written we spend a lot of time arguing about semantics!
People don't understand distances or time. They say they can only walk 15 metres and it takes them 20 minutes! I've known faster disabled snails.
And yes! People do exaggerate and lie. There's a lot of tax free non means tested money at stake!

On the other hand, Galen, there are many people who do not like to admit how much help they need.
My husband had DLA for getting around a long time before he got it for care needs. We had someone from Ageuk to thank for that. He helped us to fill the forms in, six months before my husband died.
Your post gives the impression that it's all one-sided.

No! I didn't mean to give that impression. In fact. 3 out of the 4 claimants we saw today had their appeals granted! And one hadn't even turned up.
I'm just trying to point out that people do not understand PIP or fill in the forms accurately. At tribunal they have the chance to explain face to face what the problems are, and I promise you that any tribunal I'm involved in tries to question them with, delicacy and sympathetically.
I am very aware of the fact that as many people underestimate their needs as overstate them. It's trying to sort out which Is which that's the problem.
When DLA took over from AA myself and a colleague argued with Hugh Rossi that an independent DOCTORS opinion was more reliable than a claimants statement of their needs. It has got even worse with the non doctors doing the assessments.

Mistake meant to underline not strike out doctors, meaning doctors who gave unbiased, independant opinions of function, with a statement given by the claimant to the doctor, read to them and signed to say that this was what they perceived their problems to be.
Mind you, you could get caught out by the lovely old lady who said she needed no help, but when on questioning the daughter was found wandering next door in the nude at three o'clock in the morning and trying to put the cat in fridge and the milk outside !

Good, glad you cleared that up, Galen. The DLA forms were bad, but at least you had a doctor to see what you were capable, or incapable of if they did not agree.
Whoever thought of giving this important task to Atos or similar companies? It must cost even more to administer as there are so many appeals.
Haven't seen any mention of IDS for a while.Has he gone into hiding?

New firm taking over from ATOS in March. Frankly their reputation in the States is as least as bad as that of ATOS! Also I presume they'll be employing the same examiners.
What's that french saying about plus de change mais tou jours la même chose?

Actually the number of appeals is down. Probably due to the fact they have to go through the mandatory reconsideration first. Many people don't realise that they can still appeal and others just give up as its so longwinded.
Very poor show I think. They should get rid of this reconsideration thing.

So many people do indeed give up; and who can blame them? If you are ill, the last thing you need is to try and make head nor tail of this nonsense. If judges cannot make sense of the wording, how can you expect someone who has no previous experience of the forms and who is suffering anyway to be able to tick the boxes correctly?

There must be a better and more cost effective way of dealing with this. I believe the forms were brought in because before it was solely on a doc's recommendation, but this was seen as too subjective; and docs do not like having to be arbiters in these things - that is not what they trained for. There are thousands of people employed to administer the current system and its appeals procedures - the best thing you can say about it is that it creates jobs!

IMHO it would be possible to create a much shorter and easier to understand form that just basically asked if people need help with everyday activities and gave brief prompts to indicate in what areas of life. The forms have got themselves tied up in knots with their writers getting too tied up in minute details. For anyone who has not had the joy of filling one of these in, they go into the tiniest detail about everything in someone's life. They do not however as if you are able to have sex - now that might add a bit of spice to the whole thing!

The form the claimants fill in is easier. It asks on each activity eg nutrition
Can you cook yes/no
With an aid yes/no
Not at all yes/no

It does this for each activity.
The subdivisions are decided by the examining health care profesional

The tribunal then reviews the whole issue

The table with the points is the law wot we use! The claimant does not see this so has no idea of the scoring system

Yes/no does not leave room for sometimes. Nor does it leave room for yes I can but it takes an hour to get a sandwich ready by which time I need an ambulance because I am having a bad hypo.

Forgot to put do you require the aid of another person yes/no.
Durham there's also the best for ever :- a blank box for you to comment, amplify etc.
It's based on Esa with the points scoring. It's proving hard work. We used to have 3 DLA appeals in a 3 hour session. We can only manage 2 pips and we're overrunning on those.they seem to take about 2 hours per appeal.
At least we're giving them plenty of time.

You also have to take into account the time it takes and can it be repeated safely and to an acceptable standard.
It's still AA65+ for us more mature creatures, but I suspect more would qualify if it was pip. In AA if you can use a suitable aid it doesn't count. In pip you get points for using an aid.
Personally I use a cooker to cook with. Does this count as an aid or appliance?
Just goes to show how badly the law is wordrd?

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Not actually to do with pip, but have you heard about the man who committed suicide because he'd had his benefits cut and owed £800 to the council, but only had £50 in the bank?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-tragic-tale-of-the-pensioner-who-killed-himself-after-begging-for-help-over-benefit-cuts-10029754.html

What is society coming to, that this could happen?

That's terrible. I presume it's because of the bedroom tax which I think is iniquitous! Would make some sense if smaller council properties were available, but as we know, they're not!

Yes, I feel so sorry for the boys who tried to help him. Counselling for them, I would think.
In yesterday's Independent there was an article about Osborne ignoring advice from the Treasury that his Help to Buy scheme would not help first time buyers as it would put up prices. The IMF warned him, too, but he took no notice of them either. All he was bothered about was property values going up, which is what he told his cabinet colleagues.
What with him and IDS in charge of finances, what hope have we got/had?

At least the Labour Party has said it would repeal the bedroom tax.
The Tories are going to cut even more from the poor, who have nothing anyway.
Going to get some lunch and have a long walk before I depress myself even more.

durhamjen I read that report this morning and found it very distressing. The poor man worked at the City of London cemetery and his benefits had been cut, leaving him unable to manage and £800 in debt, for which he was being threatened with court action. He had only £50 in his current account and had written to the council saying that he could barely exist on the money he had, without having to pay back such an enormous sum.

I was so appalled at this story and the thought of those poor teenagers trying to help him by throwing bottles of water over him. The man must have been completely at his wits end - and those youngsters must surely be traumatised.

This thread had been taken off my watch list so I am posting to put it back on. I have no idea why it has been taken off, or, for that matter, everything I had on. If anyone else has had their watch list deleted, please let me know.

Perhaps threads are automatically removed from Watching lists after a certain length of time?

It is four months since this one was posted on until you brought it up again, rubylady.

The only thing I can say in support of this detailed questionnaire is that it does take account of 'physically can, but mentally cannot'. When I was involved with helping people with benefit forms, one of the biggest problems - and the cause of many appeals - was the difference between those two concepts.

I had a client who was deaf and had Meunieres disease. As a result between fear because she could not hear traffic and fear of a dizziness when outside she was too worried to leave the house unless accompanied and supported by a trusted adult. This was a concept that seemed beyond the comprehension of DLA assessors.

No, Ana all my watch list has been deleted, even current ones. I have informed GNHQ and they are looking into it.