This made me CROSS (shouty capitals)

I haven't read your links durhamjen, or those posted by thatbags because I'm having a quick catch up before going out. I'll read them later.

I was another person shouting at the radio yesterday. I listened to David Cameron, it's no secret on gransnet that I'm not a tory voter and don't always/often agree with him, but on this occasion I felt he spoke clearly and fairly. I live in the north west, where there is a large Pakistani Muslim population. It's become increasingly common to see women fully covered and men wearing traditional dress. I feel the sense of separateness is increasing whereas as others have already said, previous generations of immigrants have become more, rather than less, British, without losing their sense of identity or feeling oppressed.

I heard Yasmin Quereshi (an MP in the north west) complaining after Cameron's speech that she was fed up with the Muslim community being criticised, marginalised and asked to apologise. She said she was fed up with apologising. It made me smile wryly, because I feel sure she'd expect me to apologise for British colonialism. I shouted at her on the radio as well

Some of the reactions to Cameron's speech were very revealing. It seems that no one is allowed to criticise any aspect of Islam and my attitude towards certain Muslims is changing.

Once upon a time when I visited the Bull Ring, where I often saw muslim women wearing the niqab, I didn't gave any adverse reaction and just accepted it as an outward sign of their faith. Now I react quite differently, instinctively feeling fear and anger towards those who choose to dress in this way, as I feel they are deliberately making a point I don't want to hear.

I will read your links later today Bags as I need to get on with things now.

Sorry to be only posting links but I had a bit of a Twitter conversation with Tom Holland yesterday and later read these three essay, one by him amd two by Kenan Malik on OP related subjects and how Islam may be inimical to western thinking.

The essential argument is that secular freedom sprang from Christianity -'render unto Caesar' is separating politics from religion. Holland argues that Islam was always political.

Quite a lot of reading but worth it, I think.

www.quadrapheme.com/mission-impossible-an-interview-with-tom-holland/

kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/a-cathedral-a-mosque-a-clash-of-civilizations/

kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/christianity-and-liberalism/

About Muslims - one thing that worries me is this. I am actively anti-racist and will not tolerate any form of discrimination, whether on racial, religious, ethnic, gender, or sexuality grounds.

But deep down I just don't like Islam. I think it is a forced belief system, brainwashing children from birth, that demands too much, such as all that praying, wearing veils etc. While most Muslims are peace-loving, it is the usual religion of terrorists.

So - i keep quiet apart from talking on a forum like this. I keep it deep inside of me. Of course, being an atheist I see through all religions, and find many others harmful too, such as Scientology. Christianity seems to me to be the least harmful of all, but that could just be from my own ethnic background. And some variations ARE harmful, such as JWs.

So, my worry is this: how many more people are like me, keeping it all inside. Outwardly accepting all people, but inwardly seething when I see things like a grumpy-looking old Muslim man with his younger veiled up wife walking behind him carrying the shopping, or when I hear Muslims denigrating our western freedoms.

I use the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as my yardstick for deciding what is right and wrong: treating woman as second class people is against the UDHR, so my annoyance has justification

But -is it hypocritical to stay silent, sighing inwardly? I think it is the only way to keep society safe. But what if society's veneer breaks down? What then?

I heard that broadcast, and what I took from it, made good sense.

If my understanding of the response from a senior member of the local Mosque was right, it would seem that fighting etc was wrong according to the Koran.

Perhaps we should worry less about the three woman who, with their children, have traveled to Syria to do God knows what, and rather concentrate on what is happening in our own back yard. Plus, if "they"have gone "abroad" let them stay there, saves a bit of the taxpayers money.

Sorry, those who "know" me will realise that it is not often that I take part in this sort of thread, usually restricting myself to totally non controversial topics, but I reserve my right to dip whichever toe I choose into my choice of water, be it turgid, (Yes, I know not wholly appropriate, just wanted to use it!

To ramble to as much of (or an approximation of one) a conclusion, HFS, get yourself sorted, if you choose to live in a certain country, by all means build yourself a church/temple/meeting house, you must have noticed that most towns and cities have welcomed you and made every step to help you build something.

You would like other people to understand and respect the way that your faith is observed? No problem, as long as you understand that others may want that as well, Christians (both Catholic and Protestant (although what the hell is all in-fighting is about The Supreme Being only knows) Jewish, Mormons etc.

I have said before and will say again, wars, fighting, discrimination, whatever, in the name of religion are (IMO) WRONG!

Surely all everybody wants is a good environment (ecologically and socially) and a home where everyone can live in peace, knowing that their ethnicity, religion, gender and sexuality does not define them as a member of the community.

I happened to hear that too Soutra and felt exactly as you did.
But the interview did seem quite balanced to me - I thought the Beeb did a good job.
As you say, there were some young people complaining about lack of democracy, voices not being heard etc, which in this country is quite outrageous - of course they can follow their religion and express their opinions, provided that the opinions they want to express don't incite hatred or violence - the same laws that apply to the rest of us.
But here were also some young community leaders from Smallheath I think, who genuinely wanted to forge links in the community amongst different groups.
And there was an older cleric interviewed who also urged the younger disaffected ones to wake up and realise they were living in a decent society (or words to that effect, can't remember exactly).

I don't understand why it is the state's reponsibility to stop people going to Syria. Yes of course children should not be taken there. But there is a history of young men choosing to go and fight in wars for ideals (the Spanish Civil War for example). Coming back into the country is different, they would need to be questioned deeply. By setting up barriers and making it more difficult to get to Syria the authorities make it a more attractive destination. It becomes a sort of game .

I think if we go back a couple of centuries there was the same mistrust of Catholics as they were perceived to have mixed loyalties. I am sure we have all heard of the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829 which allowed Catholics to sit in parliament and hold public office. Not until the Universities Tests Act of 1871 were universities opened to Catholics!
So we may have got over widespread distrust of Catholics in the 20 th and 21st centuries, but there was discrimination in the not too distant past. We should have learned and I agree we did not blame the Irish in general for the atrocities committed by extremists in the 70's and 80's. In the same way I try to keep a totally open mind about any Muslims I meet and would not blame or mistrust my charming village shopkeeper who is Pakistani, but sadly it has to work both ways.

Oh for

Will you please not swear at me jingl, jus because you do not agree with me. I am in the real world.

It's the extremists of any religion, political persuasion, race etc that engender others to become closet fanatics-and in many ways they're the most dangerous individuals purely because they behave overtly.

They're also obviously the most difficult ones for any country to monitor.

I agree with Soutra, but I am conscious that all sorts of polls show that among many people who are not Muslim, there is a real fear that all muslims are closet fanatics and that the teachings of their religion push them that way.

I compare this with public attitudes to all catholics, and Irish catholics in particular during the height of the troubles in Ireland. Nobody blamed or mistrusted catholics as a whole because of what violent adherents to that religion were doing in both Ireland and in the UK. There were a very few people who were always virulently anti-Catholic and blamed the pope for everything, but those we have always with us.

I worked with Irish people in London then and they did not feel any animosity in the UK.

I do despair too, just what kind of freedom of expression do these people think they will have in Syria? I was shouting at the radio too (worrying development) and last night on QT when the panel were discussing the families who have left to join ISIS in Syria. Just what are we supposed to do? Stop every Muslim traveller and question them as to their intentions? Can you imagine the uproar if a family was prevented from travelling to Saudi as this family did? If these individuals being interviewed want a police state, there are plenty to choose from as we all know.

Having just listened to the news I agree jingl
And incessant links just make me , anyone can find answers/counter arguments to just about any discussions by googling!

Some Muslim leaders are now coming out and saying Muslims must make more of an effort to integrate rather than stay in their own communities. The more of their leaders that do that then perhaps we will have less of the young people going off to fight.

Oh for fuck sake durhamjen. Come into the real world. A lot of people feel the same as the OP. They don't want to do anything to help themselves. And it is the same whether they are living in this country or in Iraq.

Yet again Ana

I agree with what you say, Soutra.

Freedom of speech can be stifled in many ways, unfortunately...

You are right Ana I have had my shouty rant, I'll leave it there.

Sorry dj but you couldn't even think of publishing this in Syria/Saudi etc etc. I am not saying we are perfect, but second and third generation British Muslims , unlike immigrant groups down the decades centuries (Jewish, Huguenot, Ugandan Asian) don't seem to realise the freedom of expression they enjoy here.

You can't have it both ways.

There are enlightened Muslims, but as a community many are also too inward looking and unwilling to assimilate into society in general.

This thread was doomed from the start, Soutra...

www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/usman-sheikh/britain-has-become-open-prison-to-migrants

Three years ago. It hasn't improved much.

opendemocracy.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=9c663f765f28cdb71116aa9ac&id=e85772b9a1&e=3e0fb9998a

Not much freedom for these.

It makes me cross to hear the families of the three girls who absconded to join IS earlier this year still blaming the police for 'failing to do more' and 'not giving enough support to the families' in the aftermath!

Justasdisgusted