11+

mumofmadboys can I ask what you mean when you say 4 of your boys benefited from grammar school education? Benefited in what way?

I was the only one in my family (of 4 children) to pass the 11+ and I went to an all girls grammar school for 4 very happy years. I loved it so much I wished it was a boarding school.
Then my parents decided to move, and the town we moved to only had a grammar school for boys, so I had to go to the local high school - and I hated it!
We were treated like children (where I had been used to being treated as a young adult). I was half way through my O levels, but this new school used a different exam board, and I found them trying to teach me all the stuff I had learned in the previous year at my grammar school - except they kept getting it wrong! Osmosis it the wrong direction; "le maison" in French; and when the teacher attempted to teach matrices I had to get up and show her how (she must have loathed me!) cos she was getting in an awful muddle and they were fresh in my mind (couldn't do them now to save my life).
It just made me wonder what all my friends at my previous school were learning, that I was missing out on... which led me to rebel so that, like another poster earlier in this thread, I ended up pregnant at 17 and a mum soon after my 18th birthday.
I have found the latin that I learned (which I hated at the time) thoroughly useful as it helps you understand all sorts of words, both in English and in other languages (it was particularly useful when learning Spanish, which I'm now fluent in), but mainly it was the different attitude towards us (the pupils) that had such an impact on me, I think.
It is, of course, down to the teachers, but I think there's definitely room for schools that encourage and enhance academic ability as well as schools that encourage and enhance non-academic abilities - and both should be respected and admired as much as each other.
A plumber or an electrician is just as important and vital as a doctor or some other profession but unfortunately in this country too many of the trades are almost looked down upon, instead of receiving the respect they deserve.

I was born in a back to back house in Leeds. We shared an outside loo with neighbours. My parents were very intelligent but very poor. I passed the 11+ with no tuition, obviously. I went to grammar school and then to university. The alternative education at the time was to go to a rough secondary modern school. The 11+ worked in a positive way for me.
My grandson has just passed the 11+ and was thrilled after his first day at the grammar school to have had his first Latin lesson. The alternative for him was an excellent comprehensive school. I don't believe children are deprived if they do not go to grammar school. We only need a small percentage of academically excellent workers. There is a great need for other skills and we need to concentrate on dispelling the myth that the grammar school is for the privileged - it is only for the children most suited to an academic education. If this was generally understood and if comprehensives were universally of a good standard then only the children suited to a more academic education would go to grammar schools.

I went to a former secondary modern comprehensive school. We were streamed on academic ability with even more streaming for English and Maths. Left school with some old fashioned O'levels and some Cse grade 1s having dropped out of sixth form. 30 years later, I can say I graduated top of my 3 law degree class, qualified as a barrister and in the last 10 years, have gained a masters in law, am studying for a PhD and continue to work as a senior lawyer. I don't believe in selective education. It pigeon holes children and no children deserve to have their life choices dependent on an exam at 11, 14, 16, 18, 21 or ANY AGE.

I passed the 11+ in 1959, and went on to a top grammar school. In the first year I was as happy and confident as I had been in primary. But in the second year we were streamed, and I was put in the bottom stream. The teachers were scathing and dismissive of my efforts, nothing seemed good enough. The effect on my self-confidence was immense, I felt stupid and a failure. Eventually I gave up trying, so endorsing their view of me. Looking back I know that in fact I was good at things, but cannot ever remember receiving any positive feedback. Had I been in a good comprehensive I think my abilities would have been spotted and promoted. But in the grammar school I did not fit into the mould. The effect on my self-esteem was huge and affected the course of my life and the decisions I made. I am sure teaching has moved on enormously since my time. But I strongly believe that a good comprehensive school where children are not compared disfavourably with their peers, and where they can be helped to recognise and develop their individual strengths, is the best model of secondary education.

I was incarcerated in an all girls boarding grammar school which was run by bigoted art and religiious minded staff.
They tried to make me go into the arts in the sixth form. I was told I could try for Oxford to take a degree in theology!
I left and took my A levels at a technical college and went on to qualify at Birmingham university in medicine.
The 5 years I spent at Lichfield were the worst in my life.

@ galen

What did your parents do to send you such an inappropriate school. Was it snobbery?

I passed 11+ in 1961 & went to a 'good' Grammar School. I was the only one in my school to go there & I really was never very happy. All my friends went to the local 'comp' which was quite close to my home but I had to travel miles by bus.
At the end my best friend at the comp. got the same number of GCE passes as I did. Plus she was able to touch type- we were never allowed to learn typing as we were all supposed to train to be teachers!
I left at 16- much to my parent's chagrin & never kept in contact with any of the people I knew from school.
Yes- I could speak 2 other languages, quote masses of Shakespeare & I have a rough knowledge of Latin but I would much rather have been happy at the comp.
I think children should go where they will thrive no matter what sort of school it is. I do think Grammar schools are a good idea- my grandchildren will be in the catchment area for this new school in Sevenoaks- but if they will be happier at a less academic school that is great too.I was shocked to hear how many of 6year olds from the school are already having private tutoring to get into this proposed new school.
All children are different & need the right environment to learn & grow.

I went to a 'new' bi-lateral comprehensive which had grammar streams and non selective streams in the same school.The pupils were taught by the same teachers and it was possible for the non selective pupils to be promoted to grammar streams. Many non selective pupils achieved good exam marks and the more technical subjects were just as important as the academic.
I think it was the best of both worlds and am surprised that there aren't more today.

I was a cub mistress in the sixties , come the 11+ the grammer school boys stayed the comp boys left , happened every year

That's exactly what I am saying WilmakKnickersFit, that each school offers different choices/opportunities; so as a consequence the child will probably go in a different direction NOT that a grammar is better or worse or whatever every one is saying. I am not talking about the benefits of grammars v comps, I am talking about schools leading children in different directions because of their leanings and how this impacts on their future life. No one seems to get that, and just want to bash grammar school education. Gosh it's hard work, and I regret posting about my thoughts. Certainly won't make that mistake again.

Oh dear, nanapug, please don't stop posting your thoughts. We are all different and the older I get (I'm hideously old) the more sure I become that the art of living comfortably together is to accept the differences and understand them when we can. What a dear lady called Rachel Pinney used to call 'creative listening'. xxx

nanapug Surely it hadn't escaped your notice that over the years the subject of grammar schools has been a controversial one, and one that is bound to elicit a variety of responses?

You said you were excited and apprehensive and that "in reality their future direction hangs on this [what school they get into] to a certain extent." Several people agreed with this and discussed whether it was right that a young person's self-confidence should potentially be damaged by such an exam and his/her future possibly determined by it.

By the early 1970s there was a good BBC Schools primary schools film series about sex education shown, as I recall, each year. Having used it at a previous school I suggested to the headteacher that it would be appropriate for my class (10 year olds) to see it. She listened and sent a note to parents saying that their child could be withdrawn if they wished. No one was withdrawn.

After my (mixed) class watched the films two things happened. A girl came and shyly confided that she had experienced some physical changes. The feisty single mother of another girl asked to speak to me. Having been warned she could be difficult I was a little apprehensive.
'That film, sex education, they watched it?'
'Y e s ...?'
' I didn't know how to tell her, you've done it for me, thank you!'

I was one of the few people from my village to go to grammar school. It was miles away. We had a bus to school but because of the distance any after school activities or Saturday sports teams were a nightmare. We didn't have a car and getting lifts from other people all the time was humiliating. Lots of people I was at juniors with didn't speak to me as they 'didn't like grammar grubs!'. But I can't regret it as it provided an alternative view of life from that held by the people on my council estate. I obviously wasn't coached! I didn't go to university as my Dad died while I was taking my 'A' levels and it was just too expensive and too difficult. Even so my changed attitude meant I did ok. I suppose what I'm saying is it worked for me but maybe I would have got out anyway. All children deserve a good basic education. I agree with an earlier post that we have totally downgraded any jobs requiring any sort of manual input - plumbers, carpenters, joiners, builders etc,etc and anything that uses any artistic ability. It's now all about grades and academic achievement. What a shame!

Wilma. I simply meant they had gone to an excellent grammar school, had good opportunities for learning academic subjects, sports and drama. They did well in their GCSEs and A levels. However I hate the elitism of the grammar school system and the fact 11 year olds are labelled as failures and for some that lives with them for years to come. I would support well streamed comprehensive schools with easy movement between streams as necessary.

I went to an all girls grammar school in the 1930's. All academic subjects. Latin has been useful when learning Spanish and Italian. My son went to a secondary modern school and left at 16 with only four GSCs but worked his way through a multi national company to become a director. He was able to retire very comfortably off at the age of 57 ten years ago. Whatever school one attends it is up to the ability of the person how one gets on in life.

Exactly Bijou.
My husband failed the 11+, he's dyslexic, and went to a good Sec. Mod., left at 15.
He started up various businesses and when I met him, at age 30 or so, he was earning at least twice as much as me (who went to a Grammar school, university etc.)
Another point - eldest daughter is a teacher and, recently, in a Grammar school. She found it very difficult. Poor standards of achievement and behaviour, buildings inadequate, morale of staff v. poor, many leaving etc. She didn't stay long.

I went to a grammar school, too. I did not like it at all and did not get on well. I went from being a bright junior school pupil, always in the first three of the class, to being completely lost in the grammar school system. Looking back, the teachers taught but never checked our understanding, so if you missed a step in the learning process you never caught up. I became completely lost. I remember going in to do my GCE exams not having the faintest idea what to expect. Only two years ago I met up with a girl from school (now an old lady, like me!) who, when I told her how I'd felt when faced with the exam papers, said, 'Oh, didn't you know - they taught us the wrong syllabus?' It all suddenly made sense.

I started learning again when I was 30, put myself through evening classes, took GCSEs and RSAs, went on to do professional exams, got a teaching qualification and the career I'd always wanted. Last year I got a BA(Hons) from the Open University. So, I cannot say I recommend grammar schools but, on the other hand, the secondary modern schools did not encourage their pupils to aim very high and many bright children could have done better. The answer is to improve our comprehensive schools so that ALL children get the education they deserve, whether they end up as rocket scientists or plumbers - and I'm not knocking plumbers because we need them as much as we need the rocket scientists.

Forgot to say that since my son retired he has obtained his MA through the open University. Never too old to learn.

So true, Bijou. Re my last post, I am now wondering if we actually need the plumbers more than we need the rocket scientists!

Today I learnt of the demise of a well-remembered school colleague (1954 vintage) and wondered how such an ideal grammar school pupil could have left us at my age! He was an all-rounder always remember him in black shorts and white vest in PT in those days-to crown everything -he did Latin. Compare that to someone who only did PT because he couldn't get a sick note to be excused from games and allocated to do Spanish-an easier language to learn (subsequently failed at O level) Apt are the words of Benjamin Disraeli-"Birth a mistake, youth a blunder and old age a regret"-or words to that effect.(I was bad at remembering famous sayings too)Reqieseat (sp.again!) in pace"
But-both products of the 11+.

I went to an all girls grammar school in 1959 and loved it. I'm still in touch with friends made there (one from primary school). I scraped into the Latin stream at the end of my first year and loved Latin (the top third of each first year went into the Latin stream, the next third to German and the final third didn't do a second language, just continued with French). The staff were well qualified (graduates but mostly without a formal teaching qualification) and ran a tight ship, standards were high but my friends and I still had a lot of fun. The daughter of one of my friends was at the grammar school when the city went comprehensive. She said what a huge change there was when the pupils from secondary moderns joined the school. Less discipline, standards fell and this once great school went downhill, latterly with abysmal GCSE results and eventually closing. The old part of the school is a dignified building and it has all been taken over by the nearby private school. The grammars in my city had sixth forms so there was continuity of teaching. When the city went comprehensive some staff found it difficult to know whether to remain in a 11-16 school or move to the sixth form college. They liked to follow pupils through from 11-18. I am so grateful for passing the 11+ - and there was no tutoring in those days.

nanapug I was not bashing grammar schools. I was simply pointing out that academy status schools also have specialisms.

However, I just read your posts again in case I misunderstood what you said. Now I think you tried to change your mind about what you meant between your opening post and the third one you made. After all, what is there to misunderstand here?

As much as I am aware that whatever the results they will be able to go to an excellent school, it has made me aware that in reality their future direction hangs on this to a certain extent. It is the start of their future. A grammar school will probably lead them in a different direction to a comprehensive school however good the comprehensive is.

Now I think your opening post has an air of bragging to it, which is fine as this is a message board where we share thoughts and opinions. You are proud of your grandchildren and pleased they are going to grammar schools because you think grammar schools are a good idea. But you can't have it all ways when other posters do not agree with your opinion. It would be a shame if you stopped posting for this reason.

mumofmadboys thanks for replying to my question. I thought you meant something along those lines but just wanted to check I wasn't missing something LOL

I truly wish that the comprehensive system had been around when I was eleven. I failed the eleven plus, I could never do those awful puzzles, and sums confused me. All my friends passed and went to the grammar school. I went to the sec. mod. I had to make a whole set of new friends. All my old friends ignored me in the street when I met them. I was a slow starter, and know that I could have gone on to take A levels and perhaps have gone to university. That path was denied me by the eleven plus. I have had a good career in mental health nursing, but I came to that late as I tried my hand at office work and retail before going in to nursing. I registered in 1981, got married in 1982, and had my children in '83 and '84. I went back into nursing in 1995, and never looked back. I do wonder though, what my life would have been like if I had had the opportunity to go to university. The comprehensive system levelled the playing field, it is a pity that it came too late for me.