Has Germany now changed? And France? And possibly Belgium?

Thank you obieone for the link. Yes, I agree Germany has a major problem. I worked in Munich about 35 years ago alongside Turks and Italians, (I was a chambermaid improving my German while at university.) We were called "Gastarbeiter"and that seemed fair to me - we were "guests" in Germany and allowed to "work" there. We were treated as (foreign) guests and behaved as guests respecting the German work ethic and culture.
The title of "guest worker" no longer exists due to political correctness, and I'm not sure today's immigrants come with the same work ethic and intentions anyway?
I think the article raises a good point, that Germany needs to be more discerning and look further afield for suitable workers, rather than just taking anyone who fancies turning up to try their luck.

I spent 4 years of my working life in Germany too. But we weren't called gastarbeiter - we were called squaddies!

We don't have more of a problem than France or even the US. Its frightening I know but then with all those thousands that are here, there has to be some bad eggs among them.

The 16 states have their own police forces and governments and more money will now be needed.Maybe the army will be used as back up.
There is a problem with jobs because you have to be good to get a job here. I don't know how discerning we have to be, we can but beg that young people come, but apprenticeships are still like in the old days. 3 years long,then 3 years as journeyman and then if you're clever then becoming a master.

Our local college qualifies the carpenters and cabinet makers as Masters. They work and study 2 years and in that time design and make their own Masterpiece. An original piece of furniture and it must be perfect. There are usually 12 -20 young men and women and at the end of the year their Masterpieces are on display and I am always overwhelmed at what the have produced.

Just read the link but not impressed, a cheap way of filling a page. This socialmedia gets on my nerves anyway.

There have been more babies lately and Italy the land of the Latin lover has even fewer babies than Germany.

I'd read a page from Russia Today with a pinch of salt.

So would I.

Margaret thank you for posting about this. My best friend from school has a German mother and my perception from what the family have said, is that many Germans are quite pragmatic about the influx of immigrants/refugees. She explained some of the kind of practical arrangements now in place to support people starting over in Germany.

One thing I would like to ask is about the education standards of the refugees. Apart from the language barrier and possibly cultural differences, are the refugees generally less well educated than most Germans? We hear accounts in the media about refugees who were doctors, dentists, etc., back in their own countries. What we don't hear about though is more generally how well suited people are to find work in Germany.

I know Germany has an ageing and shrinking population and the government considers immigration to be part of the solution to this problem. I just wondered if the current immigrants can really help. What do you think?

You mention the language WK and I'm sure those who have tried to learn it will agree it isn't easy! When they interview young Germans on tv I guess it's no surprise how fluent their English is, so maybe English becomes the common tongue? I assume the more educated immigrants would have to have studied some English somewhere along the line.

Interesting to have an inside perspective Mx

I have now asked gransnet if they will kindly change the subject heading of this thread to now include France and Belgium.

MargaretX
Babies wont enter the workforce for 18 years.
And saying France and the US are just as bad, does not help Germany.

Jobs - I dont understand your jobs comment, as that was why they need immigrants, to do the jobs? Or is it certain jobs they need filling, and not others?

Are some areas of Germany having more problems with some immigrants than others?

I suppose what I am asking is partly for my family, as some of them want to visit and whatever for a short period of time.

Gransnetters who live in France and Belgium.
Same sort of question really. Is France and Belgium perceived to have potentially more problems in some areas of France than others?

Obviously Paris and Brussels. But are the attrocities[and future ones sadly] more likely to occur in certain areas?

obieone was your original post saying Germany has a long term problem because of its ageing and declining population, or because of the high number of refugees it recently admitted?

With all respect, I think this is the problem with posting a link without knowing much about the subject.
Changing the thread title also then smacks of moving the goalposts unless obieone can bring additional perspective to the issue.

Just read your post of 12.04 obieone and I think there is a distinct danger in conflating the economic significance of immigrant workers with refugees and asylum seekers and then correlating that with your references to "atrocities".
Not the same thing and this misconception may well have been at the root of much of the misinformation disseminated by the more outrageous Brexiteers - Farage for instance.

I agree. The link in the OP is about Germany's ageing and declining population, and the potential problems of relying on immigration as part of the solution. However, within the article are links to PERDIGA, a right wing extremist group and that muddies the message of the article (probably intentionally).

obieone is in danger of doing the same thing with her follow up posts. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Sorry, PEDIGA, not PERDIGA.

I somewhat agree DaphneBroon and Wilma.
The subject is a bit complicated for me to sort out in my head.

The birth rate appears to be very low in Germany and Belgium, and falling in France.

But then I get into the issue of migrants, and then the atrocities including the one in France this morning, and indeed I dont know enough about the subject for this thread.

I dont know a thing about PEDIGA, and if it is a right-wing extremist group, it may be best to ask gransnet to delete the thread?

No, I don't think you have to do that obieone. It's not an illegal organisation, just anti-Islam. Maybe read about it online and then decide.

I was interested to hear your experience of the word Gastarbeiter, Lillie. DH and I worked in Hamburg for a couple of years even longer ago (over 40 years) and were never called Gastarbeiter, though we certainly knew the term. It was only ever applied then to Turkish and Italian workers, many of whom had come to work in Germany on low paid short term contracts on a formal scheme of that name. In our experience the word was frequently used in a derogatory way, and the workers (invariably single, or at least in Germany without their families) lived in very basic hostels - there were exposes in the German media at the time showing cramped conditions and highlighting racism directed towards the Gastarbeiter. Interesting how times (and semantics) change.

We live in France and I think the situation is different from that in Germany, because of France's colonial history. Some N. African countries as well as Syria.
It seems that most of the terrible attacks are by Muslims who were born and brought up here, and have been influenced by the social media, and feel socially deprived.
There are many France born N Africans in SE France, in several towns and cities.
There's a mosque in our main departmental town, which was set on fire last year. The Imam had made inflammatory speeches. But numbers there are relatively small.

Is France not giving lots of incentives to French nationals to produce more babies so they can restock their workforce with their own home grown people? I have a French friend who is on her 4th baby because they get so many more hand outs and concessions the more children they have. It sounds like a deliberate ploy to look after their own without the need for immigrants in the workforce and who can blame them?

No Lillie, the policy of benefits for large families goes back generations. I have friends who were able to retire early because they had more than two children.
As Tricia says, you have to understand France's colonial history. Many of the young radicalised men responsible for recent attacks are French nationals whose families came from former colonies in North Africa and have lived here for generations. Poverty, social exclusion and alienation are huge factors.

Despite those generous child allowances in France, and much better childcare facilities than in the UK- most French families remain small. France does have an ageing population- with huge parts in the centre which are practically abandonned, bar Brits, Germans, Dutch and Swiss- and some French families coming back for holidays to the house they've inherited from parents.

Here in Switzerland immigrants tend to integrate well, as well as keep their cultural centres and friendships. And I am sorry to say, it is the British and American expats, concentrated in Zurich, Zug and Geneva area- who tend to integrate the least- not learn the language, attend their own clubs and activities, their own Churches- and this for many over decades. I take no pleasure in saying this.

And add racial prejudice to that list Mamie. When we bought our property in France the notaire said "We don't mind you Brits coming to settle in France, but not our African friends." My husband din't know where to look he felt so embarrassed.
And this was from a man working for the French government.

Interesting granjura. That word "integration" is soo difficult to define.