Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

completely!

Double edged sword huh Lumpy

The internet connects people and forms movements, it also grooms and converts with distorted version of reality, it can be amazing, it can be hideous.

There are of course genuine cases BUT these are few and far between, now it seems all and sundry are jumping on the bandwagon. The world is full of twits that just like to stir the pot and now due to so many avenues having been opened up, flipping twitter, instagram blah blah blah these nutters have a voice and delight in spewing.

Has anyone heard of The Overton window? It was named after a journo and it represents ideas of discourse that the public will accept, so politicians need to pitch ideas within The Widow, outside the window is extreme. I feel someone has removed the window and put a patio door in, up is down, faith over science, it's crazy. I have never known a group campaign to become another group. Establish rights yep, which means some people have to budge up and share power, fine, all good but this, it's like the female sex is being colonised.

Someone campaigning for an end to FGM was harassed as it was seen as transphobic, the vagina monologues had to cancel as they were seen as, you guessed it, transphobic. The only thing that makes a woman is her biology, and the shared way we are socialised, our personalities are our own and we can wear what we like, just like a man can.

Respect material reality but support any individuals choices, so long as they harm no one.

Im with her on this. Things are getting ridiculous as always.

Also, if all toilets become open to everyone, which they will as we would have lost the right to challenge anyone, then how will the ladies be safer? The ladies would then become an unsafe space. Transactivists don't want their own loos either, I feel that it's all about validation. Just my opinion though.

elegran Gosh yes that is interesting, thank you.
p.s. shall we just call ourselves "women" not even "born women"

How interesting Elegran, the origin of language is fascinating,I am going to look that up.

Penstemmon, creating language is fine, stealing other peoples language, not fine. I know several M to F, two that pass completely, they were effeminate, gay men and found life easier as women. No one has a problem with people like this. there is a bloke in a nearby town who wears a dress, is over 6 foot tall and is very aggressive, no idea how he identifies though. I have also met men who have a sexual fetish about women and women's clothes. I don't have a problem with the first group but autogynephiles do not belong in womens dressing rooms. None of the groups are women, they are all male but I would respect their right to choose their name and pronouns.

The group I am most concerned with are children, children who may grow up to be healthy and gay but end up transing, or being transed to the opposite sex. Some of the material being shown in our schools is concerning. I find it deeply sexist, based on zero evidence with the most appalling pseudo science behind it.

The other group that worries me as is young women, they are damaging their bodies with breast binders. There is also something deeply homophobic about some parts of the movement, there is no place for lesbians, they either trans or accept male bodied people as partners cos hey, their lesbians too. The bullying of lesbians is truly awful, online and in real life.

Elegran I am sure you are right about cis and trans being opposites. However, Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres according to De Bello Gallico.

I appreciated your stream of consciousness Penstemmon. One of the points Jenni Murray made was about a M-F transgender person who was to be ordained as a priest. JM was concerned that this individual's main point of discussion about the ceremony was what she'd wear and how to do her makeup. JM referred to other female priests she knew waiting to be ordained, for whom these issues were irrelevant. She also talked of female priests having words like "pussy" hissed at them by some male clergy.

Whoputthecatout is right say it can't be impossible to protect transrights without trampling over women's hard won rights to safe spaces.

Ilovecheese - meaning of "cis.." I have not loked this up in a dictionary so it may not apply, but I remember from lessons in Roman History that the Romans referred to two halves of Gaul. There was Transalpine Gaul (on the other side of the Alps from Rome) and Cisalpine Gaul (on the Roman side of the Alps) so perhaps "cis . ." has been applied to those who have not made the transition to the "other side" of the gender divide?

M>Ts are very often a complete caricature of born women. Those that aren't, such as those that make no concessions to appearing as women e.g. the bearded bepenised men who claim to be women are the real worry. Should the proposed legislation go through, they will never be able to be challenged in any female space because they "identify" as women.

I cannot believe it is impossible to protect trans rights while not trampling over women's hard-won rights to safe spaces. Clearly though the MPs can't be arsed to apply some critical thinking to this legislation.

The only trans person ( man to woman) I have known, chose to look like Danny La Rue with make up/wigs.

LSP Trans people are looking to language in the same way as feminists did in 70s: e.g Ms/chairperson etc. etc.

Given that language is a very powerful medium I can understand why the activists taking it on as an area for change. However I do agree that gender is a social construct: Sugar & Spice vs Slugs & Snails etc.

I do not know many trans people but the people I do (all M>F) are aiming for 'ultra feminine' appearance and behaviour whereas many women are not. Does anyone here know a trans person (M>F) who has chosen not to have a really feminine appearance & dress? If it is the case that ALL trans (M>F) become 'ulta feminine' in behaviour/dress etc then that does not reflect the range of behaviours of 'born' women. Not sure where I am going with this,just my stream of consciouness really.

I thought Rachel Johnson's article was good too. Truth matters.

I like Rachel Johnson and agree, her article is good

I read the first one twice and still can't claim to understand it all!

Two interesting articles. I would need some time to thought process them, especially the first one.

Good article by Rachel Johnson about this.

She was great wasn't she, but look at the abuse she is getting.

Ankers if you are still around this is a fantastic article on brains and brain plasticity which I've just read.

This is good. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on the difference between women born as women and trans-women: their life experiences are different. This doesn't affect their equal right to be accepted as they are.

LumpySpacedPrincess Thank you for that. I saw the Gaby Hinscliffe article too, I do hope this term doesn't become the norm.

They were probably kicked out because they went to the press as opposed to their views.