Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

Ok Thanks!

um, yes I ma guilty/have been guilty of not that much reality filters!
I am trying to be much better, and I take much more notice of whether things are fact or opinion, and which sources are being used etc thanks to you and others on gransnet.

Which is part of the reason I asked for links, and followed most of them up.
LSP does appear to be right!
LSP in particular does seem to check out from what I can see?

Anya, that's incredibly rude. The changes are being brought in by our government, the transgender rapist was on Crimewatch.

Please tell me which part you think that I have made up? I won't try to convince you, you can make your own mind uo, but I resent being called a liar or a fantasist.

Please point out which part you think I made up, which fact was untrue.

I am a mum with some skin in this game, that's all.

No it wasn't to you!

Have they removed the word 'gullible' from the dictionary then?

Ankers don't be so easily swayed by the gibberish above, pass it all through a reality filter first. Just because someone rants and posts often and at great length, spouting allegedly anecdotal evidence, doesn't make it fact. Those who think they have a point to make do not always stick to facts and often embellish their argument with hearsay and, even worse.

Like Nina I have no more to say because to be frank it's ??????

If it is, and you dont understand my last comment, I think you eventually will.

Is that to me Anya?

????????????

It was me that asked you for links LSP, and I thank you for doing so.Very helpful as I did not really recognise your name on gransnet.

This is one of the rare threads on gransnet where I have changed my mind on something. Quite considerably on this one.

I can see where LSP is coming from.

Perhaps some of you do not live in dodgy areas or never really go in them.

There are public loos in some of them and swimming pools too.
It is not the loos for example in John Lewis that are likely to be problematic, but other sorts of loos.

There are plenty of cases or men carrying out assaults but no transgenders.

Quite! Which rather emphasies LSP's point does it not?

Been lovely chatting nina, this is a thorny issue and it's good to talk about it.

I don't have anything else to add LSP.

nina, I have been in a loo while men have tried to get in as they were having an argument with their girlfriends. But, we could challenge them, call security, if necessary the police, phew.

If you are all happy for anyone to identify as any given sex on any given day that's your choice, just make sure it is an informed choice.

I do wish people would spare a thought for the women and girls that this will effect who will no longer be able to access single sex refuges, or compete with their sex but hey ho.

If you have thought about this critically and are truly happy with self identification that's your choice. I find that most people are not aware of the changes and think in terms of transexuals. The information regarding the current changes is on this thread, the fact that male rapists are recorded as female rapists etc. Information is there if anyone chooses to have a read and make their mind up.

Just please, please don't get too pissed off if you ever need to see a female doctor and they have a beard, or you have to shower with a woman with a penis. Or your granddaughter is upset as the bathroom is full of boys and men.

You have read about the changes, you are comfortable with them and the impact that they will have on girls and women, their privacy, their right to meet in single sex groups, access refuges, compete with their own sex, receive female scholarships, use language to describe their biology etc etc etc.

I always find that some people are not aware of the recent changes so it's helpful to put it out there.

Anyway, off to work.

One face of UK transgender. There is a story line on a drama serial on S4C (subtitles available) about a similar teenager in a Welsh Comprehensive. Programme is called "Gwaith Cartref"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-39211114

LSD, you say 'you've experienced lots of objectionable men in toilet'? So it's already happening. If they dress up as women it won't change it.

Here in the UK, I can see no evidence of transgender assaults on women in public toilets. There are plenty of cases or men carrying out assaults but no transgenders.

You are wrong.

How very odd! Where on earth do you live?

I've never experienced any men in women's toilets, never mind any objectionable ones. Far be it from me to query the veracity of your posts, but I do think you have been exceptionally unlucky.

Gneder recognition bill petition, this is our government Jess.

i have experienced lots of objectionable men in toilets, but luckily have always been able to challenge them and call the police, no longer if this goes ahead.

Jess, I have a full time job and I am a mother to a pre teen but I am politically active, a feminist and give a damn about women and girls and a change in the law that would put them at risk. The man is Chicago was dressed as a man, keep up, transwomen can now just look like men and it is dreadfully transphobic to expect them to wear a dress.

At the moment a man can be challenged, if the laws change then he can't. This is already happening in England.

This is Danielle Muscatto, a transwoman, with a female penis and beard. Woman is a feeling, an essence inside a mans head and they can present how they like.

The canadian feminist library was recently attacked by transactivists, they want the women to get rid of lots of books because they are transphobic, most of the books that mention female biology. The footage shows a big white dude shouting at the women in the library,he is a woman, no dress, no make up, just a big shouty male with a feeling that he is a woman.

I have spent a lot of time putting links together as someone upthread, Ankers I think asked for them, jeez you can't win!

Opinion <back it up with links>

Spends time putting together links <ooooo, too linky>

Make your own mind up but please be aware that the ground has shifted towards self identification, I am what i feel and will access those facilities on the day that I feel like that.

I care about this, language is already being changed so that the word mother is replaced with people, breast with chest, women on their periods as menstruaters.

It is Orwellian to change half the populations language so that they have to tie themselves in knots to describe themselves.

Think what you like but I can look my daughter in the eye, and her daughter if she ever has one, i can say that I took it seriously, I tried.

Well said Jess

* LSP* I agree that are beginning to sound obsessed.
I have lots of questions for you"

Do you spend hours trawling the internet to back your arguments?
And was the man who walked into a "bathroom" in Chicago dressed as a woman?
Which legislative body are you referring to please? Hard to keep up?
And have you ever experienced a man who is dressed as a woman in a public toilet being in any way objectionable? (You didn't answer before)
People born in male bodies, wearing female clothes, are a very rare sighting in my experience. And perhaps only a couple of times in my entire life have I spotted such a person in a public toilet.
And one of those occasions it was a couple of very glittery "drag queens" on a night out in a theatre and I don't think anyone minded

It's pretty easy really, Ankers, if you think of a child's sex as the chromosomes they're born with (leaving out the small percentage of intersex people) which cannot be changed.

Their gender is the manner in which we treat them and regard their behaviour. For instance, pink is regarded as a girl colour but there's no reason a boy can't wear pink and wearing pink doesn't mean he becomes a girl. Likewise, playing with cars doesn't make a girl into a boy. We've just imbued certain colours with certain attributes and categorised toys the same way.

Where I lived in developing countries, pink wasn't thought of as a girls colour. One school near us had a pink school uniform for both boys and girls, the colour had no gender significance to them at all in those cultures.

SueDonim. I have had a look back. Yes, it is yourself and Anya, and possibly pennturner who I was referring to.
Who all seem to say something different to JessM. Though I am ending up more confused that I was before now!

A man walked into a bathroom in Chicago the other month and strangled an 8 year old girl until she passed out, this will happen more if we can't challenge who uses female bathrooms.

I agree that other facilities are needed, I would back that to the hilt. I think that you will find that transwomen don't want that, it seems to be more about validation than safety.

nina - self identification would allow any male to identify as female. I think mentioning that males are much more violent is highly relevant. Yesterday we saw two transwomen rapists in the press so please don't say that it's not relevant, why would you do that?

LSP, I thought this post was about the question of transgender human beings, I make this reference because primarily this is what they are, being regarded as 'real women'? It's now evolved into where they should pee. Fair point but now you've clouded the issues by dragging in various stats on male violence across the board as if to reinforce your argument as to why transgender people should not pee in a woman's cubicle citing that they may be men masquerading as women and therefore have the intention of committing a crime. I'm sorry but you're so random, you've lost me.

Back to the toilet issue. Clearly transgender people have to pee somewhere, they are human beings with the same needs as the rest of us. I'm not happy to share a restroom with them but having thought more about it, a solution may be to create a transgender cubicle in the same way a disabled cubicle is installed, within the same block. If laws go ahead, then the obvious answer is to install cameras for extra security. Parents already know not to allow children to go into public toilets alone so this shouldn't be an issue.

As to what they should do, well, that isn't my problem to solve. I am involved in lots of groups that support women and girls and I am really busy, with the rise in porn culture, safe facilities for women in countries where they are raped and murdered as they don't have a safe space. Also, trying to raise money so that girls and women have sanitary towels and pants, lack of these stop girls receiving an education. To be honest, i have my hands full, but I will happily march with transwomen to secure them their own facilities.

It's odd, feminists are never allowed to concentrate on women and girls. as I saw on an MN thread yesterday no one ever asks the RSPB to look after whales or the NSPCC to concentrate on the elderly.

Anyway, off to bed, thanks for the chat.

Ankers I may be the poster you referred to earlier regarding sex/gender. I believe JessM to be wrong in stating that a percentage of children are born with indeterminate gender. Children are not born ready-gendered. Gender is a social construct e.g. blue for boys, pink for girls, while the sex of a child's is determined by their chromosomes. A small percentage of those children will have indeterminate sexual features.