I carry chairs

Why was there no lift? Hauling armchairs up 'two flights of stairs'?
I trust that no disabled people ever visit that building.

#thinkoutsidethebox

My friend "F" found out at 17 when she didn't have periods that she was born without a womb. Doesn't make her a man!

No it doesnt. Because not having a womb isnt a "condition" for men and a man can never know what it is like to be a biological women without a womb or with the inability to carry pregnancies to term or what it is like to have a hysterectomy.

They are all female conditions

Re the chairs. The TW in the article is AN ATHLETE. So better qualified to pick up a chair than some bookish journalist!

Marieeliz someone I know was born as a woman, but never felt 'right'. She led a miserable existence for almost 50 years, before finally committing to the long and difficult transition to becoming a man.
(She) He has now completed the process, and it is a joy to see the change it has made. He is finally at peace with himself. He came across many other people of both sexes in the same situation, during his transition period. It certainly isn't something to commit to in a casual way.
I find your flippant attitude to their situation very saddening.

I didn't actually mention rights when I posted about gay people I posted about attitudes and how they have changed. I suspect much of the same shift will happen with trans issues. I think living a life where you feel you have to suppress your true self for any reason must be horrendous.

Well if attitudes are going to change, then I hope they will change in the direction of realising that these 'trans' people need psychiatric help rather than having their bodies mutilated to fit the gender they think they should be.

The thing is, there is nothing wrong with their bodies, is there, whether they are male or female - the problem lies entirely in their minds, so psychiatric help is what is needed.

In a few short years I feel there will be a lot of desperately unhappy people who have undergone this awful surgery and hormone treatment, possibly as children or teens, who will look at their parents in despair and ask "WHY on earth did you let me do it?"

The attitudes that need to change are this:

A man can wear a dress
A man can be sexually submissive
A man can wear make up
A man can get a pair of boobs if he likes
A man could have preferred dolls to trucks as a child
And still be a man
The definition of "man" doesnt have to begin and end at Butch!

Likewise a girl can hate dresses, feel disturbed by the attention her developing adolescent body attracts, not want to be pigeon holed as girly and meek, want to be free from the shackles of the patruarchy
AND have all of those experiences acknowledged as falling within the realms of what it is to be a woman

Attitudes need to change towards people who feel deeply uncomfortable with gender stereotypes & reject them. They are not in the wrong body, it is the gender stereotypes that are wrong

Attitudes to autistic children and teens who feel uncomfortable in their skin need to change, we need to stop presenting transitioning as the fix, and instead address why boys who like dresses feel they cant also be male, address the issue of puberty being extra traumatic for autistic children and put support in place before they get to the point where they literally want to crawl out of their own skin.

We need to stop organisations who tell children that dresses & dolls = girl and trousers & climbing trees = boy having access to young children and struggling parents, change the gender stereotypes not the child's sex

Exactly, notanan2.

There are many YouTube videos of 'trans' children where parents say how insistent the child was that they were the opposite sex to the one they were told, and now they are happy in their chosen rôle.

They usually show 'before' pictures of the child looking very stereotyped and now they are similarly stereotyped as the opposite sex.

Why are those parents happier to be urging their child towards a future of permanent drug treatment and surgery, rather than let them wear what they want and play how they want?

'Phoenix goes to School' is 'a story to support transgender and gender diverse children'.
It's a nice story if the point of it is that Phoenix is a boy and can live life as he chooses, but the point is that Phoenix identifies as a girl and likes dresses and flowers.

There seem to be many similar children's books giving the same stereotype-based message.

www.amazon.co.uk/Phoenix-Goes-School-Transgender-Children/dp/178592821X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Phoenix+trans&tag=gransnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1546624991&sr=8-1

For those gransnetters who are unaware, we have a male to female transgender person amongst our number. Well, at least one, who has had the courage to 'come out' to us all.
So please, try not to be rude and dismissive about trans gender people, it's not necessary.

Juggernaut are you aware that there are a growing number of transpeople, cross dressers, and self declared transvestites and transexuals who are speaking out against the recent turns that the trans rights movement has been taking.

Are you dismissive of their views? (Which I happen to share)

So please, try not to be rude and dismissive about trans gender people, it's not necessary.

If we are regressing back to redefine women as the meeker frilly ultra feminine sex, rather than a grouo of people who share biology but can wear/do anything they want and act however they please, then yes, it is a very very necessary discussion to have

notanan2
Oooh, snippy!
All I 'said' was that we should try not to be rude and dismissive about this issue on Gransnet, due to the fact that at least one person who posts on here is trans gender. She has, in fact, commented on this thread, and could, understandably be upset by some of the comments here. I just thought we should, as adults, all be able to discuss this politely!
I am not dismissive of anyone's views, I may not share them, but hey, it's called free speech!
To be exact I find the comments from
Marieeliz, Cherrytree59, GrannyGravy13, Lynne59, FarNorth, Craicon and Kircubbin2000 to be rude!

People who define women in a mysogynistic regressive way should be aware that that can upset females and parents/grandparents of females who post on gransnet....

If someone is daft enough to want to carry two armchairs up one or two flights of stairs to use during an interview when there is probably a perfectly useful table and chairs in the conference room then I would stand back and let them carry them too.

Surely any sensible person would have done the same?

In the article it said that they would have when presenting as a man, but didn't when identifying as a women.

They were almost definitely the most physically fit in the group.

The logistics aside, its the idea that women don't do that but men do which is remarkable, not the poor organisation of the space.

The logistics aside, its the idea that women don't do that but men do which is remarkable, not the poor organisation of the space.
perhaps it was the fact that the men were not very organised and the woman just went along with their disorganisation …..

I apologise for any misandry.

Juggernaut, I had and have no intention of being rude to anyone.
What have I written that you feel is rude?

notanan2
I have never, and will never define women in a misogynistic, regressive way as I've been one all my life!
I still try not to be rude though, to anyone!

FarNorth
Sorry, including you in the list was a mistake, I apologise unreservedly!

No probs [thumbs up]

maryhoffman is the only poster who has been rude enough to direct an offensive slur word at other posters on this thread as far as I can see.

If you are going to post about being mindful of the posters who this issue directly affects, then you must mean natal women?

If not thats like saying that black people arent directly affected by "black face" and should shhh and be polite about the issue

notanan2
As you seem determined to 'pick holes' in everything I 'say', I shall leave you to your opinions!

I didn't think anyone on this thread was being rude or dismissive, but you're fully entitled to remind us not to be so, Juggernaut, just in case.

I don't suppose anyone is going to check posts from the other people you mentioned, though, to try to guess what it is you object to. So that's that.

For those of us born at ease with our sex & sexual orientation and have negotiated the gender stereotypes enough to feel well balanced and comfortable in our skin it is quite difficult to appreciate the confusion and difficulty for those persons whose physical definition does not match their psyche.
Also as a person born a women I have had to manoeuvre a very male oriented world on many occasions and some equality has been hard won by women struggling and asserting equality.

Some trans women appreciate that, some do not.

I have tried to keep an open mind, to listen and to learn about those struggling with the confusion and pain of having one set of physical attributes when in your head your are the opposite.

What I find harder still to comprehend is 'fluidity'; that today a person might feel female but tomorrow might be male.. regardless of physical appearance.

All are people and so I will always treat people as I expect to be treated and try hard not to be judgemental. But that is hard.