Referendum

I shall just toddle off to my parallel universe and ignore you.

Yup, Lynn. Much easier to go off in a huff than to back up your assertions with evidence.

I was a remain voter but I'd probably vote for Theresa's deal because she's worked so bloody hard for it and is getting stick from all sides. If it was so easy to get a better deal do people really think she wouldn't have?
I'm seeing the brexiteers point of view re the paternalistic, we know best attitude of the Westminster crowd. There was a vote (whether there should have been one is another matter), it was for leaving the EU, it was a 'People's Vote' and should be respected.

Did anyone see Sky Deal or No deal programme. Very interesting to see not one person on show in Leeds would change their original view so 2nd referendum really not viable and would be waste of money.

I voted to leave because I am totally appalled at the amount of waste of money the EU engages in. The latest i have read is Junker has claimed expenses for making 125 mile detour to collect his dog.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1073956/jean-claude-juncker-salary-125-mile-trip-dog-Vilseck-germany-Andrew-Bridgen-brexit

It is stuff like this that makes my blood boil. We have so much genuine need in our own country and yet send billions to EU when we could be doing free trade deals with other countries without paying them billions.

Junker also drinks bottles of wine for over a hundred pounds a bottle when he has his banquets. Totally unnecessary and disgraceful. We can't vote him out.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/827528/eu-officials-brussels-party-50000-european-union-commission-700-bottles-wine

I voted Leave - because I believed that the EU was on the way to Crash and Burn, and would drag us with it. think we would manage ok - providing we are lead properly! Which we haven't been. The country is in an incredible mess due to lies and poor leadership. Of course Brexit is important, but not as important as sorting out the grinding poverty and inequality in this country. It is in a terrible state. We need to sort ourselves out so that we are in a position to be rational. Currently, we are fire fighting and no use to anyone. Brexit is another division and distraction from the very real issues.

newnanny looking at the bigger picture, does the cost of wine and some unnecessary travel claims really make any difference to what is best for our country? It is a drop in the ocean compared to what we will lose by leaving the EU. Most of the history is irrelevant, we need to look at the future for our grandchildren.

knickas63 if the EU is going to 'crash and burn' anyway, why bother to put ourselves through all the pain of leaving? Why don't we just sit back and let it happen? We are not in the euro so would be impacted far less than the others.

I really think we should all focus on the best future for the UK and ignore all the peripheral, largely irrelevant, stuff.

I agree * Newnanny* another referendum wouldn’t solve anything and would give a similar outcome, in fact I think more would now vote Leave anyway.
Just as a GE wouldn’t solve anything, as if Corbyn won it would be by a tiny amount, no clear majority.

If we had another referendum and it gave the same result it would be so much easier for everyone to accept it. The 2016 one was so flawed no reasonable person thinks it was fair. Leavers could enjoy being right and Remainers would accept they had been outvoted. Anything else is going to upset about half the country.

All remainers do not despair the only issue that MPs are united on is that there will be a deal of some kind and “no deal” is off the table.

In reality TMs backstop deal is a dead duck it will be a softer deal involving a customs union. Most of us will not see any great change from day to day, politically it’s a fudge we will still regulated by the EU in many respects.

Where to you get all your inside information from David please share your source with the rest of us.

Nonnie you don’t need inside information, has anyone changed their mind, probably not many.
Do we really believe that TM will be able to change the minds of 220 on her deal
A majority of MPs were against Brexit in 2016, it is now reported that a majority is now against “no deal”.
Remain does not seem to be on anyone’s agenda.

All that’s left is a deal, softer than TMs backstop plan, quite likely close to JCs ideas, the least worse option.

The time has passed to debate the pros and cons of Brexit all that needs to be done is for MPs to vote FOR a plan

ANY PLAN

Theresa May doesn't have to convince 220 people - she only needs to convince her own party and the DUP, that would give the majority she needs.

As for a second referendum (they can bog off with the "people's vote" crap, its a manipulative term chosen because people reacted to it better than "second referendum") - what if Remain did win this time? Leave would then want a best of three third referendum and the whole thing would descend into an even bigger farce than it is now.

Isn’t there a famous saying about never asking a question unless you know the answer?
Labour are putting forward an amendment in the hope MP’s vote for a second referendum.
Just look at what David Cameron did ....

I hope the Corbyn Amendment for a Second Referendum will be for a ' free vote' not a ' whipped vote'.

Whether an individual voted leave or remain I for one am now more convinced than ever as a Sovereign Nation we have become a State of Europe. I have felt this for years but since the Referendum resulted in Leave and we have taken steps to exit the EU this has in my opinion proven to be the case.

To think by leaving the EU our Defence/Security for example could be/ might be / will be weakened shows me we have ' lost control ' as a nation to unilaterally take the necessary steps to protect the United Kingdom. Defence /Security is one of the top requirements of a Nation for it's people. Had we not been an EU Member State I believe the UK and the EU would have developed bilateral cooperation over the years as it benefits both sides. By leaving the EU the vast sums of money we have invested in the EU Defence , the structures we have helped develop has been wasted as the the EU is prepared to not respect any aspect of our input by not negotiating continued cooperation but by slamming the door.

That's just one of the many factors I believe the signing up to EU Treaty's calling for ' Ever Closure Union ' have succeeded in weakening the UK as a Sovereign Nation.

I remain of the opinion the EU is more concerned with political dogma , the compulsion for a Federal Europe, not the economical/trading aspect of the EU that is the principal behind the European Union. The 4 pillars/freedoms signed up to by our governments of both left and right of politics have tied us into agreeing to the ' Ever Closer Union ' as stated in Treaty.

When those Treaty's were signed we , the nation /people were not given a referendum / a voice , even though there were promises. From John Major signing the ruddy Maastricht Treaty onwards the erosion of Sovereign powers has taken effect.

Some like that concept , some dislike that concept but having watched , listened to the dogma, lack of pragmatism coming from the EU and what I feel we need to do to recalibrate as a country to become self reliant it will not happen whilst we are in the hands of 27 other countries who have their countries interests at heart not ours.

If anybody thinks there is not a hierarchy , elite in the EU they are kidding themselves and I think when the pressure keeps mounting for 'Closer Union/Federal Europe ' the cracks will appear and I see that showing a few signs already.

I am conflicted . I voted Remain but by a whisker as I felt in a Stockholm Syndrome with regard to the EU. Now after watching both the EU and UK politicians and their contempt for the people , their shenanigans I think I could now vote Leave if there were a 2nd referendum as I have little respect for most of them and I prefer for the UK to forge agreements , form alliances without those who too hold their Sovereignty above all else.

I admit to being a flip flopper as I fear a Labour Government under Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum leadership which I believe will do the UK harm.

Tricky isn't it.

POGS I don't think worrying about a Labour government should influence which way you might vote. I think it is inevitable because whatever happens, stay in or leave, TM will carry to weight of it and be blamed.

I agree that there are things about the EU which we all dislike but when weighed in the balance I think we are better off in than out. Our economy has already been hit by the threat and the £ has lost 20%. It seems it will get worse when/if we leave. At the moment we have a veto in the EU and are part of the decision making process, if we leave we will still be subject to many of their rules but won't have a voice. Life is not perfect, we have to analyse the information we have and vote accordingly. Kneejerk reactions about alcoholic EU ministers etc have no place in the debate.

I have a blooming headache with all this I just want to go back two years before Blxxxxy Cameron dreamed up this stupid referendum which was only advisory in the first place. I feel like Alice in Wonderland falling down the rabbit hole it’s hideous and turned my country into a divided nation my town my friends all divided We must be the laughing stock of the whole world and those that aren’t laughing are so transfixed with confusion they are scratching their heads
There is NO common ground dear Queen nice as that would be
I won’t change to be a leavers and leavers won’t change to be remainers we are as far apart as the day it happened Heartbroken for my country

Absolutely agree BlueBelle. The whole thing is a living nightmare!

I agree with most of that BlueBelle just not so sure about whether any of us could change our minds. I do listen to those with different views to mine but so far haven't heard anything to convince me. I will continue to listen but think many are burying their heads in the sand and are not prepared to listen to the views of others. I do think TM should listen to those who voted to stay as well as those who voted to leave as the vote was so close but then I think she has blinkers on.

One thing that the Brexit fiasco has changed is the attitude in Scotland.
The only person I know who voted Leave is waiting to see how the fishing industry comes out of the negotiations and she might then change her mind.
Many I know voted in the independence referendum to stay in the Uk(misled by false promises that staying in the UK was the only way to ensure remaining in the EU).
Now however I find quite a few saying that they had voted SNP in the past, less because they desperately wanted independence and more because they support the party's left of centre policies and desire to protect the poorest in society.
But, given the way that TM and co have put down and ignored Scotland's issues and problems, plus the utter lack of respect and care shown by them, there has been a shift towards supporting a second fereferendum on independence. People who are far from rabid nationalists are sick fed-up of this rude and disrespectful attitude, and are now pushing independence to the top of the agenda.

mcem

Why is Scotland wanting ' Independence' viewed so differently , especially by Scottish Nationalists , to those in the UK who voted for ' Independence ' from the EU?

Why is it Nationalism in Scotland is seen as the best thing since sliced bread but for Nationalists in England they are racists?

I don't follow so much of what I think of as hypocrisy when I hear the SNP voices in Westminster talking of Independence, Nationalism with such conviction whilst refusing other countries the privilege of doing, thinking like wise.

POGS I struggle with the Scotland independence from UK but want to be tied to the EU thing!!!

Agree with you 100% POGS.

I believe that a significant number of Scots are pretty disgusted with TM's intransigence and air of superiority. If we choose to be 'tied to the EU thing', it may be because we feel (not geographically) closer to the philosophy of some European nations than we do to England. (I except NI and Wales as fellow Celts although I am aware that Wales voted to leave). That's their choice.
I don't see why the EU 'powers that be' should be expected to bow to the general unpleasantness and cussedness of Westminster.

If we opt, for whatever our individual and common reasons may be, to remain within the EU but ditch Westminster, it will be because that's our choice.
I have never accused the English of being racist - arrogant perhaps in the dismissive and derogatory way that SNP MPs are disregarded.

Many of us would be perfectly happy to see England choose to go on in their own way, wishing them no ill.
The objection is to being dragged along that way if we choose not to.
I await with interest developments over the weeks and months to come but am becoming more convinced that Scottish independence is inevitable.

I personally would prefer Scotland to be part of UK. Being united with our neighbours makes 100% sense to me. Why I prefer to remain in the EU too. Having said that if the reason Scotland wantscto leave UK is because it can remain in E U..then I understand...