Referendum

I won’t change to be a leavers and leavers won’t change to be remainers we are as far apart as the day it happened

Bluebelle That may not be true as I think there are quite a lot of people who have changed their minds - both ways. Not everyone was 100% certain either way, in fact I think that very few were. I think many people could see all the pros and cons and thought long and hard about their decision and now look on with dismay - at our politicians and those in charge in the EU.

Why is it Nationalism in Scotland is seen as the best thing since sliced bread but for Nationalists in England they are racists?
I have asked that before of posters and never received a satisfactory answer.

mcem

It would be reasonable to bring Theresa May and the EU into the equation of Scottish Independence if the calls for an Independent Scotland began at the start of her tenure and at the time of the Referendum.

The SNP are hardly a new political party .

The premise of those wanting an Independent Scotland is they want self determination, self governance away from the Union and Westminster.

Yet those who want the self determination , self governance of Scotland are content to swap Westminster for the European Union. What is the meaning of Independence?

I repeat nationalism is regarded as a badge of honour to Scottish / Welsh /Irish Nats but it is the case if an English person mentions nationalism it is jumped on as ' Jingoism ' , ' Wanting to return to the days of Colonialism', ' Calls of racism '. Why?

Why do you think Nicola Sturgeon has not called for a 2nd Referendum already?

Thank you PECS for a reasonable objective post which is actually quite rare on this topic.
If Westminster showed a degree of respect instead of the patronising putdowns there might be some common ground but as things have gone recently, it's almost too late for compromise. Far more of the comments from English posters are likely to say we should p--- off because they don't give a damn about Scotland.
I have never said the same of England but Scots very often don't have the same sense of loyalty to the union.

mcem I have good Scottish friends from Leith who I greatly respect. They are SNP but also very pro Europe. We have had robust debates!,

As for staying within the E U after independence, there is just a chance that Scotland would be treated as an equal instead of being seen as second-rate as TM clearly thinks. This attitude has been seen more and more clearly since 2016 and I think that's a reason that opinions are moving towards independence in a way that they didn't previously.

PECS your friends are not alone in their thinking!

Unfortunately for Scotland if we leave the EU and then they gain independence they would have to apply for membership of the EU as a new country. Whatever deal they got would not be as good as the one the UK currently has and they would have to adopt the Euro and join the ERM

I am a southerner, I personally would hate to see break up of the United Kingdom.

It's good to see the patriotism of our various countries, except whenever the "English" say anything patriotic or want to fly the St.Georges flag we are immediately branded as racists and little Englanders which in my humble opinion is rather unfair.

I am a southerner, I personally would hate to see break up of the United Kingdom.

Why?

I can't see any reason why we should cling to a country that doesn't want to be part of the 'United' Kingdom. The Scots will still be our friends and neighbours.
I appreciate that people see it differently. But I've never yet heard a good reason why Scotland should not become independent.

Still vote leave, absolutely !!

Maizie that's it precisely.
I'd understand more if folk had roots, family or other connections here but if you live in the far south, never visit and have no business ties, then why does it matter to you other than as a 'point of principle'.
If Scotland is forced to remain part of Uk, there will inevitably be resentment. That situation would encourage no sense of loyalty to Uk, would it?

There would be no project to rebuild Hadrian's wall and I'd still be able to visit Stratford and London as I have for many years. You'd be welcome to visit and explore. Would we need passports? Would it matter either way?

So that leaves us with economic ties. If Scotland gains independence then those who actually believe that we are a dependency of England, could join us in raising a cheer on both sides of the border and we could be left to struggle on with our meagre oil revenues.

Those who are desperate to get rid of Scotland from the union would be happy. It smacks a bit of the unlikely situation we have in Westminster where two groups that seem to be polar opposites end up achieving what they both want and currently I believe Scotland's independence is more achievable than a good brexit outcome.

mcem

Forgive me if I am missing your reply to my question

POGS Fri 25-Jan-19 20:12:27
Why do you think Nicola Sturgeon has not called for a 2nd Referendum already?

I think she has more sense than to toss another significant major political issue into the mix right now. However I do believe that the mood has changed because of TM & co's arrogance, inefficiency and infighting. More and more Scots are less and less willing to stay within a union which is fast becoming meaningless and evokes little loyalty.

One way or another, when the nonsensical turmoil of brexit dies down, there will be a referendum here and who knows whether it will be before or after the much-vaunted 'Second referendum' which seems to be gathering support!

The infighting is across Parliament and not confined to the Tories.MP’s have lost the plot and have shown themselves to be useless.
Sturgeon knows that calling for another referendum ( how many will there be!) is pointless until we have left the EU.
Doubtful that the outcome would be any different to last time though in any case.
Many Scots won’t want to leave both the EU and the UK too.

mcem

Thank you for responding.

I have thought since the Brexit Referendum result and the obvious position the SNP has taken over Remaining in the European Union and wanting Independence from the other 3 nations in the Union the time was ripe for Sturgeon to call a 2 Referendum in Scotland.

Surely had the vote been ' Yes' there was no better time for Scotland to negotiate with the EU to maintain it's Membership and not have to presumably reapply to the EU to become a Member.

As for your comment :-

"Those who are desperate to get rid of Scotland from the union would be happy."

I have certainly not gained the impression other Gransnet posters have felt that way although it has obviously been a desire from posters such as yourself who are wanting Independence.

The much vaunted second referendum here is only gathering support with those Remainers who were outraged that they lost the referendum ( just as those Scots who wanted to leave the UK were outraged to lose.)

You rather miss my point pogs which is simply this.
Many Scots have actively sought independence for decades/centuries and yes the SNP has been a significant part of Scottish politics since long before the brexit debacle.
However, there has been a significant shift of opinion since the brexit referendum and it's that shift which is making a difference now.
People who voted for left of centre policies had the choice of voting Labour (as did the rest of the UK) OR SNP. Many voted SNP for that reason, without being passionate supporters of independence.
Current intransigence at Westminster has caused a significant number of left-wing voters to move firmly behind SNP and this has meant that they are now ready to vote for independence when a decade ago they were rather luke-warm about it.

Actually although I know very little on the subject I don’t blame Scotland for wanting their independence.
David Cameron told the Scottish people that the best way for their country to stay in the E.U. was to vote to remain part of the U.K.
then he called the bluddy referendum.
(Please MaisieD don’t ask me for links or evidence I can’t bear it!).
I feel Scotland were sold down the river and some of the people there must be furious.
Whether there are enough of you wanting to break away remains to be seen in the future.

As an aside, I can’t be the only one who regrets that the referendum result showed how each individual country voted? Now we all know N.i., Scotland and inner London voted Remain. And everywhere else voted Leave.

In my opinion it should just have been a total count for the whole of the U.K., giving this information only made a bad situation worse. It divided us all good and proper didn’t it? It would have been better to wonder how it went but not to know. Just counted the votes and said 52% of the U.K. voted Leave and 48% of the U.K. voted Remain.

Sorry, I should have said the ‘majority voted Leave’.
It’s late & I’m tired!

Fair points urmstongran.
It's posts like this one that go a long way to showing it isn't about mutual hatred between Scotland and England! You're right that a lot of people are furious and their numbers are growing.

lemon

The much vaunted second referendum here is only gathering support with those Remainers who were outraged that they lost the referendum ( just as those Scots who wanted to leave the UK were outraged to lose.)

I haven't seen any 'outraged remainers' I have, however, seen much outrage from Leavers though. I have seen people who voted Leave and now see that what they were promised is not ever going to happen and they want another vote so they can stay in the EU. On this forum I have asked several times what the Leavers are worried about if there is another referendum. I have never had a response to that question. In your words "much vaunted" people want the chance to air their views.

FYI I voted remain but go for leave now. Am sick of it all. Get on with it. Go with Theresa's deal for God's sake!

PS I'm Scottish and most certainly dont want to leave the UK.
Apart from the economic suicide, the prospect of unravelling 400 years of union with the rest of the UK after this almighty palaver of unhitching from the EU after 40 years is unimaginable.