Boys playing in girls' sports - is it fair?

My aunt who died recently aged 85 played mixed hockey around 60 years ago. She preferred it to girl's hockey and thought it wasn't quite as dangerous!

I admit to not knowing much about rugby.
Here is a comment I saw on Mumsnet today :

My teens play rugby. One boy one girl. The girl is older and currently taller and heavier. But DS is strong. Much stronger than DD and in fact me.

DS is a good player. The first time I watched him, as a 12 yr old, play county rugby, I cried. It was brutal. Boys slamming into each other, bodies folding, heads cracking.

Boys lined the pitch as they were felled, limping off winded and bloodied. Tearful.

I imagine that scenario with a boy on the girls team. It's terrifying. If faced with it I wouldn't allow her to play. I couldn't. But more terrifying is what she would face. The judgment and the calls of bigotry and I know she'd sooner put herself in harms way than face the inevitable level of hostility and exclusion that would follow.

Of course, it soon won't be a lone boy on a girls' team - as sport becomes more 'inclusive'.

And concerned parents are very unlikely to know if any of the girls in a match are actually transgirls (boys).

Sorry - I should add that I mean a scum half playing at Colts level.

At professional level it would be a different set of circumstances.

Farnorth Both actually!

Lung capacity in boys and girls is pretty even until the age of 18, so it wouldn't matter if the SH were male or female, in terms of physical abilities.

According to the film, Billie Jean King was pushed into a match with a male player who was past his best.
That's not the same as wanting to compete with men.

Male-bodied people entering female sports and winning easily is not the same as women making improvements in their achievements - exactly the opposite.

Wasn't it Bille Jean King who complained that she wasn't allowed to challenge men in tennis? We should realise that actually women and sport have a relatively short history and that during the time they have been fully participating women have made tremendous progress. Just as 1950s male runners would not stand a chace against today's male runners in ten or twenty years time there may be women athletes who can challenge men,
As far as children go I've known some girls of 12 who were tall , heavy and very physically strong. I've also known some 12 year old weakling boys.

LOL - you haven't seen some of the rugby scrum halfs then!

I'm not sure what point you are making there.
Are you referring to female rugby scrum halfs?

Sparklefizz In defence of wide hips ...

www.bu.edu/articles/2015/in-defense-of-wide-hips/

... found no connection at all between hip width and efficiency: wide-hipped runners moved just as well as their narrow-hipped peers.

If nothing else, this thread is widening my knowledge on issues affecting both male and female athletes.

Interesting article to be found here:

sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

And whilst the author does seem (at least in some places) to lean towards the 'male advantage' arguments, he does make a good point that the issue should be challenged and explored from as many angles as possible, to enable evidence-based regulation.

^Btw, perhaps you know that males have more advantages than weight e.g. bone strength, muscle strength, lung capacity.
So the 6 stone male you mention has a much better chance against a bigger male than any female would do.^

Males also have a completely different shaped pelvis (for obvious reasons) which makes it easier for them to run.

Farnorth LOL - you haven't seen some of the rugby scrum halfs then!

Believing that something should be possible and it actually happening are two different things. And I believe that it should be possible to explore and challenge any issue in a respectful way, even one as contentious as biological males in female teams. Just as we are doing here.

Having inclusion policies in sports clubs should not be at the expense of fairness. So, putting aside your views for a second, wouldn't you like to see such a reasonable approach in sport?

You say that it won't happen and maybe you are right. Doesn't mean that I can't still believe that it should be possible

For you the issue seems to be very clear - it's never OK for a male-bodied athlete to compete against a female. For me I say that in some circumstances it is unfair but in others not unfair.

GrannyLiv you really can't.
You can write all that stuff about the reasonable behaviour that you'd like to happen, but it won't.
Case-by-case challenging of male-bodied people in female sports would be a complete disaster.

Btw, perhaps you know that males have more advantages than weight e.g. bone strength, muscle strength, lung capacity.
So the 6 stone male you mention has a much better chance against a bigger male than any female would do.

NO.

FarNorth I can have it any way I like - the issue is not as black and white as you claim.

If a team coach were attempting to pass off male players as trans women players, simply to gain an advantage and win a game, then this should be challenged.

However I hear people saying that they feel they cannot challenge anything even remotely connected with trans issues because they fear that they will be accused of discrimination. I do not believe that this should be the case - it is reasonable to think that an issue can be explored and questions asked, if done so in a respectful way. Sports clubs have formal processes available to any player or coach who wishes to raise an issue or objection and I see no reason why that process should not be available to a team who wishes to claim an unfair advantage due to the inclusion of biologically male players.

I also believe that in most sports (although maybe not netball Janipat!) there is not much of an advantage to be had and so the inclusion of trans athletes is not much of an issue for me.

My Son grew up playing rugby, where you will regularly see the 6 stone player on the wing taking on the forward line player who is literally twice their size, and getting the better of them.

You are clearly passionate about the issue and good on you for taking a stand. Are you active in sport yourself?

GrannyLiv you can't have it both ways.
Either it's okay for male-bodied people to be included as females, or it isn't.
Can you imagine the problems if it's left to an opposing team to challenge someone's inclusion?

"Is the person really trans or not?"
"Even if they are trans, do they have an unfairly male physique so should be excluded from this match?"

Janipat That's a good point, about height.

Suedonim Surely an example of the other team exploiting the issue for their gain, rather than the inclusion of trans students. I agree, an unfair advantage and a move that undermines and belittles the work done on inclusion.

And for that reason people should be allowed to challenge the inclusion of a biological male in a female team, without fear of being pilloried.

GrannyLiv my 15 year old grandson, thin as a rake, but 6ft 4in tall already could decide to self identify as a girl. If he decided to play netball for example, that height, which is almost unheard of in a girl, would be a considerable advantage, that wouldn't be reduced by blocking his testosterone levels. The whole spectre of sports is a minefield that I'm glad I don't have to adjudicate. Perhaps Sparklefizz has the answer, separate categories like the Paralympics. Although even that discriminates against people with learning difficulties as opposed to physical ones.

A similar event occurred at a friend's children's school in the Milton Keynes area. Their girls' football team of 15yo's had a scheduled match at home . The opposition turned up with two 'trans-girls' neither of whom made any effort to disguise their masculinity. However, the home team were not allowed to question the inclusion of these 'girls' - a deeply unfair situation which upset the home team greatly.

FarNorth I appreciate all the information and research that you provide on here.

Davidhs When it comes to testosterone levels we already have restrictions, the South African runner has been limited to her events so if sex change athletes are an issue the limits are already there.

If you watch the Navratilova documentary to which I posted a link earlier, you will realise that tests and science show that Caster Semenya, the SA runner, still has way more testosterone than a female runner, even though she has been told to reduce the level. Navratilova allowed her own testosterone level to be measured against male athletes and against trans athletes, and it is not a level playing field.

I don't see why there can't be a separate athletic category for trans people like there is for people with physical disabilities. No one expects a swimmer with only one arm to compete against able-bodied swimmers, and no one should expect women to compete against trans athletes.

No doubt I have said something to offend somebody, but that is really not my intention and apologies in advance if I have done this/used the wrong terms/upset anyone.

GrannyLiv - these were not supposed to be mixed teams. They were supposed to be girls' teams, yet one team included two boys who were clearly much stronger than the girls.
How can that not be demoralising to the team which had very little chance of winning because it was all-girls?

paddyann, thank you for your kind concern.
I believe that people who have no concerns about male-bodied people being able to self-identify as female, are failing to see obvious problems ahead.

Janipat I was saying that Emily's story isn't a great illustration for the issue under debate. The difference in strength between a 12 year old boy and girl are not that great.

I don't agree that having been born biologically male automatically gives a trans athlete an advantage. As part of their transition they have taken testosterone blockers and lots of oestrogen, which results in a reduction in muscle mass and therefore speed and strength.

The advantage would be with pre-transition males, who identify as women and who want to play against other women.

Can anyone think of an example where a female to male trans person might have the advantage?

Davidhs I doubt very much whether school teams are subjected to testing for testosterone levels.

GrannyLiv I don't think anyone has said there's a problem with openly mixed teams playing each other. I can see there could be problems when it is a case of single sex teams.

In the link Sparklefizz posted about Martina Navratilova's documentary it clearly says Federer is coming to the end of his successful men's tennis career. If he decided to identify as female he could stay at the top for a good many more years. No I don't think he will either, but if he did, even taking testosterone blockers to bring his levels down wouldn't negate the bodily advantages he'd accrued up until that point. The world has moved on and there is going to be a need for a great deal of thought as to how to include transgender athletes in the various sports where genetic sex would give an advantage.

The article stated that the incident happened two years ago, when the author (Emily) was 12 years of age. In rugby (and probably most sports), girls and boys are allowed to play within the same team, and against each other, until they turn 13. So, on face value, Emily's team of 12 year old's played against a team that had two 12 year old boys in it.

As a story to highlight the issues surrounding the inclusion of trans athletes in sport, it's not a very good one.