causing offense?

FWIW, Prince Harry and Ed Sheeran have just been on The One Show talking about something to do with 'gingers' and mental health.

I missed a lot of it, but it is mental health day today, and they were definitely talking about that, and probably bullying,

My hair colour was referred to as ‘ mousey ‘ as were many others, along with shorty, etc ,etc, I have always admired red, ginger, auburn hair.
The thing is that’s how humans are to each other, mostly they are terms of endearment, & friendliness. BUT sadly these same endearing words when used in a derogatory way, become nasty & hurtful and become the tools of the bully.
Why do people become bullies ? Well that’s another topic.

I had lovely red hair in my younger days and always loved it. I liked being called Ginger. Can remember admiring it as a curtain across my eyes and the sun catching it and it was beautiful. I think anyone who is rude about red hair is just jealous.

DGD1 has the most amazing dark red hair but got teased by older boys at primary school. I taught her to stare very slowly at her tormentors, starting at their feet; when she reached their faces she said “better than mouse” and walked away. It worked really well and in the last ten years has had no trouble. Always best to teach a riposte if possible!

A very interesting post SueDonim ( on the history of redheads.)
I grew up in a very Irish Catholic background where the colour was common ( as in a lot of them!) so never heard any name calling, but when my own DC were growing up they told me that school friends were being targeted in a mean way for their hair colour.
Has anyone seen the Catherine Tate sketch where she is a bride giving a speech at her own wedding?
I have also remembered the book Anne Of Green Gables, where she hates her hair so much due to mocking remarks at school that she dyes it with ink.

Well said Summerlove. I grew up being called 'speccy four eyes' and 'jokes' about my surname which just so happened to sound like the name of a song. Of course I attempted to laugh it off - what's the alternative, cry in front of other kids?? Yeah, that'll work! Inside I was mortified, and still have a thing about wearing my glasses, having got contact lenses as soon as I could afford them.

You've nailed it, Summerlove. Of course, it was hard to fight back as a child with red hair, because then you got labelled with the bad/hot tempered trope about redheads. You couldn't win.

I remember overweight children being called 'Fatty' as part of their name, e.g. 'Fatty Wilson'. Would that be acceptable today? Nope, absolutely and quite rightly, it would not be acceptable. Yet it's another appearance-based nickname. As you point out, those who endured such a name may well have sobbed their hearts out at home, despite their apparent acceptance.

I had very blonde hair as a child. I was the butt of endless amounts of ditzy blonde jokes.

Of course I laughed it off, because if you don’t laugh it off people just keep trying to make you the bad guy. They tell you that you are too sensitive and it’s just a joke.

So you learn to let it roll off your back like water on a duck.

That doesn’t mean you don’t go home and cry into your pillow.

Just because people seemed to take “jokes”better in the old days, doesn’t mean they actually did. They just couldn’t stand up and tell you it was hurtful without having it turned around on them.

For the Love of God, it's not about hair colour.....mousy, blonde, brown, whatever. You can carry on and on with your dilution and passing the buck......it is rude and unacceptable in the 21st century to use the term " Gingernut".

There is no PC Brigade. You can carry on with your petty prejudices behind closed doors if you wish. When , you are out and about in society, use discretion and neutral language.

Callistemon

One of my daughters is very blonde, and was constantly told she was “such a blonde” she just laughed it off, still does, but she’s very easy going, if it was my other daughter, she may not have taken it so well!

I wish someone would say that to me.

That’s good - but for others, offensive comments about personal appearance can be very hurtful. It’s best not to comment at all unless you’re saying something positive like ‘what beautiful hair’

I'm the mother of DD, one blonde, one with copper hair.
I think the blonde haired one gets far more flak and what could be considered offensive jokes than the other one.

They let it wash over them like water off a ducks's back.

What point were you trying to make then?

Marydoll - I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me.
That's not the point I was trying to make.
Which has been misunderstood by most .

Well said, SueDonim and Maw!
I too initially felt sorry for Fennel, but on reading further posts, I don't think she accepts her comment was offensive and we gingers (and I'm still a true ginger and proud of it) are overreacting. .

cockroaches......vile creature.

Does anybody remember Katie Hopkins?
“Ginger babies, just like real babies but so hard to love”
I would have swung for her. ???

Yes, it's always been unkind, Pamela. No one has ever said 'ginger' to me as a compliment. Others have said 'What lovely hair,' or variations of, which I do accept as a compliment.

Why don't you and other deniers of the bullying aspect educate yourself as to why people are sensitive about this issue? I've twice posted a link from the Unilad website but no one seems to have read it so I'll c&p it right here.
------

Why Is Ginger Bullying One Of The Last ‘Acceptable Prejudices’?

There’s no denying that there’s something different about red hair, something that no other hair colour can hope to emulate. In popular culture it conjures up images of fiery passion when sported by women, and usually derision and on the extreme end bullying among redheaded men.

Recently we were invited to an event whose aim is to showcase and embrace this difference, by featuring a selection of the world’s hottest redheads in a bid to ‘re-brand the ginger stereotype’. The Red Hot II Campaign was put together by photographer Thomas Knights and designer Elliott Frieze, and launched at the nhow Hotel in Rotterdam last Saturday (September 3).

Knights and Frieze put the event together to launch their book, which also features redhead models.

All over the world there is a stigma attached to being red haired. At the press lunch before the official launch, Knights mentions the fashion industry as a specific example, saying that a few years ago it was unheard of to have a ginger model on the runway, and that using a redhead was seen as an ‘edgy’ move.

The fact that there is an event to showcase a positive outlook on ginger people says quite a lot in itself – you’d never see a show specifically featuring the world’s hottest blondes, or brunettes, for example.

And yes, at the launch party there were a lot of very attractive redheads – it wouldn’t be exaggerating to say the most I’ve ever seen assembled in one place. But behind all the glitz and glamour there is a serious issue here, bullying, one which Red Hot has been helping to tackle by donating profits from the book to charitable causes.

In answer to why he’s doing it, Knights says:
In the UK and throughout the world, being ginger comes with many stigmas attached. Many are bullied at school and for some, even later in life.

As far as I can see, no one has focused (or noticed) the huge, polarised gap between the way our society perceives red headed women (often the ultimate woman – think Jessica Rabbit) and red headed males (often emasculated and de-sexulised in film and TV – no Hollywood heroes, heartthrobs – few leading men). Red Hot has been working with the Diana Award – a charity set up in Princess Diana’s memory, which is supported by Prince William and Harry – and specifically their anti-bullying initiative, donating the proceeds from their book to the group. So far the money they’ve raised has helped the Diana Award reach thousands of young people in schools, training them as Anti-Bullying Ambassadors who will go on to help improve the lives of others.

A study at the University of Cork found that redheads are more likely to be bullied than people with any other hair colour. Lead researcher Kevin O’Regan concluded that the ‘bullying of gingers’ is ‘one of the last socially accepted forms of prejudice against people for a trait they were born with’.

If the level of bullying levied against people with red hair was directed at the LGBT or black communities there would be mass outrage – and rightly so. Even Prince Harry has been bullied for his hair, and if the Royal Family aren’t safe from this prejudice then what hope is there for the rest of the ginger population?

The derision of red hair seems to be geographically split, with Northern Europe, and especially the UK, being at the forefront. Knights tells me that in Brazil and most South American countries red hair is considered a very desirable trait.

And in the Netherlands they even have Redhead Day, a celebration of all things red held in the city of Breda, which coincidentally happened at the same time we were celebrating the launch of Red Hot over in Rotterdam.

But then you have things like South Park, whose episode ‘Ginger Kids’ inspired a ‘kick a ginger day’ in one English school, generally adding further to the stigma surrounding red hair – although accidentally, as the episode was meant to be ironic.
After the suicide of 15-year-old Helena Farrell back in 2013, who was bullied for her red hair, there were calls for anti-ginger abuse to be classified as a hate crime. And sadly, Helena isn’t the only red haired person to die by suicide because of bullying.

In 2014, 13-year-old Peyton James killed himself after suffering years of abuse from classmates. In a similar story, Simon Walters from Wolverhampton, 14, tragically died by suicide after he was bullied in school. Another teenager, 15-year-old Adam Bailey, killed himself after being picked on, with his mum saying at the time that ‘he was bullied because he had orange hair’ and that ‘he found that difficult to deal with’.

So the consequences of anti-redhead discrimination are clearly serious, but where does it all stem from? It seems to have seeped into the mainstream psyche way back in medieval times, where it was apparently thought to symbolise witchcraft, causing redheaded people to be routinely victimised by witch finders – redheads were also thought to be vampires and werewolves. As well as that, back then red hair was considered the mark of ‘beastly sexual desire and moral degeneration’.

Redheaded people were also considered untrustworthy, partly down to the fact that a lot of art at the time portrayed Judas as ginger – even up until the 19th century in France the phrase ‘poil de Judas’, or ‘hair of Judas’, was used to describe redheads.
-----

So there you have it.

Fennel, I felt a bit sorry for you initially. Your post seemed a bit naive and you got told in no uncertain terms.

Can you not see times have changed. Bullying is totally unacceptable. A friend of mine deals with school phobics and one poor kid was absolutely terrified by the whole " Kick a ginger " thing.

I don't think bringing the war into it is helpful.

Children should, in my opinion be able to say Please don't call me that/ touch me there or what ever empowers them .

*ok one more post and I'll shut up.
What really concerns me is that children are being raised as potential victims, feeling sensitive, and not encouraged to fight their own battles. Which they will meet many times in their lives.*

Jes re-read your posts!

Are you seriously suggesting that it "toughens up" toddlers to be called gingetnut, darkie, packie etc?

Some people seem determined to not hear how and why Ginger is offensive to many.

It is nothing like "mousey" etc as mousey was not used to identify members of a race that was considered inferior/rough. It was traditionally a negative trait as it denoted lower class.

It is not offensive when used in countries where there is not that history of treating the Irish etc as an underclass

It is not offensive if people use it to describe themselves

It is still offensive if you mean it as a compliment.

And its not hard to not say it! What's wrong with "you have lovely hair"?

Has it always been unkind?
Some people called me freckles. I didn’t like it much but I don’t think they did it unkindly. My mum told me they were kisses from the sun!
Unfortunately they have turned into rodent ulcers. Now that worries me.
I suppose that I can’t quite accept why being auburn, red , ginger, etc, is such a dreadful thing. I think it’s beautiful.
I do have to admit to not reading the thread. Sorry, sorry sorry.

PamelaJ1 presumably Ginger Baker is so-called because he adopted that moniker as his professional name himself. Maybe it was a case of 'If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.'

I cannot understand why people here are defending unkind behaviour.

Presumably he chose to use it.
See also the earlier posts about Ginger Rogers and Simply Red.
On the other hand we have (or had) Fats Domino.....proving exactly what?