"Regressive and sexist"

There is a simple solutions toon - 3 changing rooms male, female, and anyone

This also raises the question of bi-gender people. Those who identify as male on one day and as female on another. What about those who identify as gender neutral? It is all a mine field and there are no easy answers.

I hadn't finished - All this with no more evidence than his saying, on that day and at that time, that he was justified in being there, because he was a woman.

But according to a strict interpretation of the proposed legislation, if someone who is obviously male (6 ft 3 tall, muscles like Pop-Eye, tattoos, beard, bald head, hairy chest and hipster jeans revealing a glimpse of hairy arse, bulge in crotch) were to enter the ladies' changing room and say "I am a woman", then the ladies already in there are supposed to continue removing their uter garments, and even their underwear if they are changing into swimwear.
If one of them grabs a towel to cover herself and replies, "Are you really a woman? I don't think I believe you!" he will be able to accuse her of verbal sexual abuse and win his case.

How are we keeping men out of female spaces pinkquartz? We aren't! Nobody has their genitals inspected and passed as female before entrance to the ladies loos or changing rooms! The arguments on here just have no logic.

I agree pink. Women are supposed to give up their women only spaces. And I reiterate, it isn’t just about feeling secure, or threatened but about dignity and privacy.

No the way forward is not more mixed spaces.
Look at the link I put up...yes it is horrible and that is why we do not want mixed spaces.

You cannot go through life thinking everyone is good and stay safe. Look at the link this guy is boasting. he put himself on the net to show what he likes to do in women's changing rooms and with women underwear.

For transitioning why not ask the tra women to use the mens?
As FarNorth has out in her post above....ask men to be kind. Why do we always expect women to accomodate everyone else?

If a person has transitioned or is transitioning then I would say a card declaring this could be shown perhaps?
I know I have seen TRA women in the loos and it is fine. I have lived with some and cooked dinner with them.....it was a long time ago so there wasn't really the op possible. If people are just getting on with their lives then it doesn't even draw your attention.

No, no, the emoticon wasn't aimed at you, Pinkquartz! Now it's my turn to . I am angry at that man's behaviour and that we are supposed to roll over and accept it.

SueDonim


sorry I didn't think to put up a warning....but it is a very clear example of a reason for men to be kept out of female spaces and it is noting to do with transitioning.
The problem lies with men who are not transitioning but want to take advantage

NotTooOld I watched a debate by the Heritage Foundation on YouTube about the difficulty that people who regret transitioning have because it is something that can't be talked about. Their talks are usually too right wing for me but they do have some interesting ones.
One of the speakers had I think (my memory is not so good) transitioned from female to male. He was brought by a grandmother who wanted a boy and dressed him as one. He thought he was a boy in his early years. He now regrets transitioning and was arguing that no research is being done into the problems for people who are sorry and why they made the decision in the first place.
They also had a good debate on surrogacy which can be great or not but we aren't able to talk about the 'or not' cases.

Thanks for the clarification, Maddyone!

Well said, FarNorth

Why is there no campaign urging men to be kind and to accept transwomen in men's spaces, I wonder?

maddyone
Most 'transwomen' don't have any op and a lot of them don't use hormones either.
They claim there should be no need for them to alter their bodies in order to be accepted as their 'true gender'.

Absolutely fine with me, whether they have any treatment or not, as long as they also accept their true biological sex.

Why is there no campaign urging men to be kind and to accept transwomen as in men's spaces, I wonder.

And I meant as opposed to a person using the excuse ‘I’m self identifying as a woman’ in order to access female spaces such as the ladies loos or changing rooms.

Sue, maybe I worded it badly, but I meant a person living as a female, and undertaking the drug therapy, and either having had, or going to have, the op.

Well obviously I got that wrong ladies. I thought if someone was living as a woman, presumably pre the op, that probably people wouldn’t mind, or even know, that the person was trans and therefore not mind them using the female facilities. Mind you, that would only work in ladies toilets that obviously have cubicles, and not in female changing rooms at the gym or swimming pool.
Obviously I am wrong, so therefore it seems the only way forward must be mixed facilities, toilets, changing rooms etc. But I seriously don’t like the idea of mixed changing rooms at the shops ie M+S. I don’t know, what a dilemma.

That link is horrific, PinkQuartz!

What exactly is a 'genuine' trans-woman, as mentioned by Maddyone? How do we define that?

it seems everyone agrees that a trans person living as a woman is okay in female only spaces, precisely because they are living as a woman.

I don't agree with that but, obviously, if a person looks like a woman I wouldn't know any different.

It's also about safety for everbody, trans or not- While a trans person might have the legal right to use specific restrooms it doesn't protect them in the restrooms- If attacked, by law, the attacker can claim past sexual trauma as the trigger/cause-

Traumatized people are triggered by identifying a body type, not identidy- If a trans person living as a woman is obviously male bodied a traumatized woman could view the trans woman as a threat-

Nearly every woman has "at least" been sexually "taken advantage of" by a man in their lifetime- That is of course no fault of trans people, but walking into their correct bathrooms can make them sacrificial lambs by law-

If this link works this is another reason why women need female only changing rooms and its not about transitioning

twitter.com/iamredacted/status/1191491832938717185

I’m not quite sure that this thread is really about trans people, because it seems everyone agrees that a trans person living as a woman is okay in female only spaces, precisely because they are living as a woman. I think the problem really is that women are uneasy about a man, living as a man, that he only has to say the magic words ‘I’m identifying as a woman’ and he is then allowed to use female only facilities. These are the men who may abuse women in the female only facilities. This seems to be the problem to me. A genuine trans woman, who is living as a woman, isn’t a threat to other women, I think.

I am glad that she was able to backtrack before harm was done. It might be that in ten or twenty years there are going to be some very distressed people who have been on hormone blockers.
I do recognise some of her thoughts and feelings. How harmful to alter a young person's brain. I don't know if they are ever able to grow past this?

Here is an article by a young woman who has detransitioned from being a transman.

"I knew I was a boy, because I loved cars, and trucks, and mud, and boxing, and girls. I knew I was a boy, because I didn’t ‘act’ like a girl - nothing about my character ‘felt’ girly, and trans ideology says everyone feels their gender. I didn’t feel like a girl."

medium.com/@charlie.evans/the-medicalization-of-gender-non-conforming-children-and-the-vulnerability-of-lesbian-youth-10d4ac517e8e

I read that sex attacks were up 98% in mixed gender/gender neutral spaces. And those were last years figures.
Now i have four young granddaughters and I want them to be safe.

Women deserve to feel safe.

Women now have to fight back again or we will lose our safe spaces.
M&S think they are being "current" but it looks like they have shot themselves in the foot.

I do fail to understand why anyone should expect TRAs to speak with one voice. All movements have members who are seen as extremists and there are conflicts in every movement. There were splits in the Gay rights movement, some men thought (and still think) there is no such thing as bi-sexual and such men are gays in denial. Gay men and lesbians have had many conflicts.
I read Simon Fanshawe I thought he was interesting but I noticed although he objected to self IDing he didn't actually say what might be used instead. I do agree about free speech and I would like to see a lot more discussions.