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"Regressive and sexist"

(217 Posts)
Moocow Wed 30-Oct-19 21:19:27

"for women and girls"
Just realised this is what has been making me feel uncomfortable.

grapefruitpip Wed 30-Oct-19 21:22:56

try Horlicks.

lemongrove Wed 30-Oct-19 21:34:53

Yes moocow the trans lobby goes after anybody who has a differing view to their own, I don’t know who Meghan Murphy is, other than a feminist, but since the police were inside and outside the venue to keep the peace, it seems that she was giving an entirely reasonable and legal talk.It’s all getting out of hand!

blondenana Wed 30-Oct-19 21:59:22

To be honest i am fed up of hearing all this transgender stuff,which seems to dominate everything we read or hear or see on TV,
Where has this all come from all of a sudden, i sometimes think it's a phase people are going through or it seems trendy
Not knocking genuine ones,but some seem to change their mind
I know of several children who are saying they want to be the opposite sex

NotTooOld Wed 30-Oct-19 22:59:29

And as for 'teaching' LGBT in primary school....the mind boggles. I read recently that there is a charity (or somesuch) being set up for people who have 'transitioned' and now wish they hadn't.

GagaJo Wed 30-Oct-19 23:35:42

Bet white racists in the US would have said the same during the civil rights movement. Just wishing for life to go back to 'normal' for them.

I expect sexist men would say the same about feminism, now we're in the middle of the 3rd wave.

And I'm sure homophobes were sick of hearing about gay rights, until equal marriage was legalised.

Cultures move on and change. And in the middle of the change, it is awkward and uncomfortable for those who aren't affected directly by it. But if you were a sociologist, you'd say flux / change was a normal action.

mcem Wed 30-Oct-19 23:59:44

NotTooOld is your mind boggling at the thought of teaching or not teaching facts about LGBT rights and attitudes?
How can you teach LGBT as such?
Teach children how to be gay or teach them how not to be gay?
Just don't understand the rationale behind your post.

DoraMarr Thu 31-Oct-19 06:48:02

Schools aren’t “teaching LGBT in primary schools.” Schools are teaching tolerance. Tolerance for those who are different from us: race, religion, sexuality, able bodiedness or not, with mental health issues or not.....Surely that is a good thing?

Moxi Thu 31-Oct-19 07:09:44

Hi this is my first day on gransnet so I hope you don't mind me chipping in. I am a secondary school teacher who teaches about issues such as LGBTQ rights and many of my pupils feel just like you NotTooOld they are confused and bewildered by all of this. I think it is really important therefore to give them chance to talk openly about this, with someone other than their parents, in a safe and tolerant space. Change is always difficult for everyone, as you said GagaJo, but I think talking about tolerance and understanding can only be a good thing.

Fiachna50 Thu 31-Oct-19 09:12:44

I go with Moxi's opinion. I don't care what gender, religion or race anyone is. I take as I find.

mcem Thu 31-Oct-19 09:17:46

Exactly! The fact that anyone can think that LGBT is a subject to be taught in schools is beyond me.
That's why I framed my question as I did in the hope that OP would come back and explain her point of view.

mcem Thu 31-Oct-19 09:19:13

Sorry OP. Meant to address NotTooOld!

DoraMarr Thu 31-Oct-19 09:48:07

But mcem it has been explained that LGBT is not not being taught in schools. Two teachers have already explained this.
Imagine you have a young family member who is different: perhaps they are gay, or the only child in their class who belongs to a different religion, or who is visually or mentally impaired, would you not expect them to be treated with respect?

Elegran Thu 31-Oct-19 09:52:15

Pride Toronto, the organisation behind the city's annual pride festival, . . said in a statement that Ms Murphy's views are "a denial of the lives, experiences and identities of trans people".

But the demands of SOME trans activists are a denial of the lives, experiences and identities of non-trans people. If a woman has experienced sexual and physical abuse from men, she needs to know that she can go somewhere safe from the least possibility of that happening again. "Ms Murphy says she wants to ensure the safety of women in places like female prisons, women's refuges and changing rooms.

In Canada, she has spoken against a bill that amended Canada's rights act to prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender expression and identity over concerns it could undermine women's rights by eroding their "safe spaces".

"Under current trans activist doctrine we're not allowed to exclude a man from a woman's space if he says that he's female and I find that quite dangerous and troubling," she told the BBC.

Having spaces that defend this right doesn't need to impinge on the rights of trans people, it maintains the rights of vulnerable natal women. Probably there should also be such places for trans people - but the safety net should not be removed from one section of society to give it instead to another. That is not equality, it is the supremacy of the strongest (due to their testosterone-conditioned combative instincts) and the most vocal.

mcem Thu 31-Oct-19 10:06:45

Dora I am very well aware of that which is why I am asking Nottooold to explain to me her point of view.
That seems to be that, instead of seeing it as a important issue re basic rights and equality, she regards it as a specific school subject!
You are very far off the mark with your assumptions and as an experienced retired teacher I seriously question how LGBT can be seen as a such and also how it can be taught!
If the terminology had indicated that she did or did not approve of the discussion of LGBT rights then the discussion would have been different.
Please do not ask me to imagine a scenario as you have no knowledge of my opinions and experience.

I was questioning the wording of a post in the hope of clarification and not the validity of discussing a very important issue and its place in schools which is why I supported Moxi's post. Note that she correctly said teaching about.

trisher Thu 31-Oct-19 10:07:08

As far as the admission of trans women to only women spaces I think the words of a woman from a refuge reporting on this are applicable. She basically said that everyone admitted to the refuge were subjected to a risk assessment and anyone failing that would not be accepted regardless of gender and I would stick with that.

Elegran Thu 31-Oct-19 11:54:14

That needs to be thoroughly publicised, Trisher, to allay the very real fears of abused women, alongside the currently more active publicity of the point of view of the trans people who are affected by it. That is what I mean about the stronger voices of some trans women - they are vocal about their needs and rights, while abused women could be more diffident about demanding theirs. Their safety- and their sense of safety - when "whole" men could appear to be women is one of the aspects of transgender legislation that puts many off it.

trisher Thu 31-Oct-19 13:10:03

But men have been dressing and appearing as women for centuries Elegran and I know of no cases where they have interfered with or threatened natal women. There may now be very vocal advocates for trans-women but it isn't their fault if abused women have difficulty demanding their rights. There are no doubt trans gender women who have the same problem. It is important to protect all people who are subjected to abuse and violence, no matter what the gender of the abused or the abuser.

Elegran Thu 31-Oct-19 14:08:20

You are right that it is important to protect everyone from abuse, and not just that but the fear of abuse. With all the current emphasis on the legal rights of trans women (as opposed to the more casual acceptance of what were regarded as "a few eccentrics") it is not surprising that some women, who have had bad experiences with men, should fear that their protection could be weakened. It isn't their fault that they just don't trust men - any men.

There has been a case where a "whole" man chose to be sent to a female prison rather than a male one - he/she was safe from rape, but in his male persona was working his way through seducing the vulnerable women imprisoned with him. Don't bother telling me about the lesbians doing the same thing - that is another problem in closed one-sex/gender communities, but not what is under discussion at the moment

Trans women under threat also need protection, of course, the threat is not just one way. I heard from one trans woman how, when in a bar with what she thought were friends, her drink was spiked for the fun of watching her fall off her stool - she suffered a cracked skull and an enormous loss of confidence.

Elegran Thu 31-Oct-19 14:16:38

As for threatening women - on a different thread we learn that there has just been a decision in Canada against the part-time-trans woman who was (essentially) blackmailing unwilling beauticians into handling his genitalia by booking a waxing appointment as a female without mentioning that it was for his definitely male scrotum. Those who declined were threatened with expensive legal action against them for breaking the equality law and several ceased to work in the field at all as a result. He/she had repeated this action several times.

Doodledog Thu 31-Oct-19 16:13:42

I believe that that case was lost by the complainant (Yanniv), Elegran; but I share your views on the subject.

I have no issue with people transitioning, or with trans people being supported and protected from abuse. I understand that ther lives are difficult, and I have no wish to make them more so.

What I do object to is men 'self-defining' as women, and insisting on the right to use women-only spaces. Women (or cis-women for those who prefer) have fought long and hard to get protection under law from sexual abuse and objectification, and all that is being swept aside in the name of trans rights.

SueDonim Thu 31-Oct-19 17:34:53

Let's not forget the lesbians who are now labelled as transphobic if they don't want to have sex with a woman who possesses a penis.

Elegran Thu 31-Oct-19 17:43:36

Yes, the case went against Yanev, as I said.

suziewoozie Thu 31-Oct-19 17:51:29

I don’t prefer the term ‘cis-women*. I’m a woman and my sex does not need a prefix to qualify it.

suziewoozie Thu 31-Oct-19 17:53:43

I don’t know if it’s been discussed elsewhere but LGB people have split from Stonewall on this issue SueD and quite rightly so imo. Stonewall have turned into TRA bullies