Messy House

as long as she knows you would help if she asked then you have to accept its her way, some like minimal, some like stuff, if she were to say i cant cope with all this mess, then offer to help clear out or buy her folders and boxes to keep things in, but until then it is who she is,

Some people get up tight about untidiness, which is what I think the OP is talking about, and some people don't.

My daughters have described our house as "organised chaos". It might look chaotic to some people but it actually isn't. OH and I do stuff. We have interests. It shows. As one friend put it: "I like your house; there’s always something to look at."

All of my daughters have complained when they've gone to live in other houses that other people's standards of cleanliness where it matters are way below mine and what I taught them about hygiene.

Tidiness/untidiness is a more complex subject than it first seems. It can be linked to depression or OCD, simple lack of time, motivation or storage space or access to disposal facilities, or an inability to identify stuff as essential, desirable or surplus to requirements . My mother was incredibly houseproud when I was a child to the point of throwing out stuff regularly if there wasn't space to store it neatly. However after my father died she became a hoarder and a collector of jumble sale finds. All I would say is that if ever she mentions it to you as a problem for her, be ready to offer to help if you can do so in a non judgemental and practical way.

I’m the messy friend!!
I veer from extremely tidy, where everything has to be in its’ home, to can’t be bothered weeks where the clutter builds up. I much prefer tidy, organised and clean but life gets in the way. If I know someone is coming, I make a huge effort the day before. If I have a week with no one expected I let it slide. I actually quite enjoy tidying up a big mess, as it seems so much more satisfying seeing the transformation!! I would love to be Mrs Tidy with an always perfect home, but I now accept that is not me. I have too many hobbies, too many books; too much stuff. That’s me.
I had a friend once who used to hover near her husband while he finished reading the paper; her aim was to take the paper to the outside bin the moment he’d finished, as she couldn’t bear the “clutter” of it lying on the chair arm.
We’re all different!

This is like the issue of being morbidly obese. We’re all supposed to say nice things and assume people are happy as they are in case anyone gets offended. But in actual fact we all know that being terribly overweight is dangerous health-wise. Same goes for your friend. She’s probably a very nice person but she clearly has underlying problems that enable her to live in a hovel. It’s just not healthy and it’s not nice to be around. There’s no way surfaced are spotlessly clean under all that clutter. Maybe bring the chat around to why she feels stuck in life and can’t let go of old baggage in order to move on.

I had a friend years ago who always said her house was cluttered enough to be happy and clean enough to be healthy. I think I want my house to be like that and I hope it is.

I am very fond of my sister-in-law, but she does take tidiness to what I would regard as an extreme. You can extrapolate from these two examples: she keeps everything, including the kettle and coffee machine in a kitchen drawer. When she ran out of beds for guests, she made her adult step-daughter sleep on the hard utility room floor, rather than on the sofa. I could go on.

My house is what I would regard as 'ordinary' - lived in but clean and not too cluttered, but she could scarcely contain her distaste when she stayed with us and made it plain what she would do to it if it was her house.

I could never, ever make negative comments in anyone else's home, whatever I thought. Not even in my children's.

We took her to visit our local 'stately home' and I commented on one of the rooms that it was elegant but still nice and livable-in. 'Mmmm', she replied doubtfully - 'I think I would want to get rid of most of the furniture!'

I prefer going to a friend's messy home than one where it's all cream carpets and you feel just by being there you are going to mess it up. I certainly wouldnt suggest you offer to help her clear her clutter, not unless she asks for help.

Pity the poor person who will have to clear it all out if she ever has to go into care (or worse)

Otherwise just open another bottle

I have a sign hanging up... It says...
It's my mess and I love it.

It is how she wants to live. You say it is clean so what does it matter...

A cluttered home might be a home crying out for more storage which may be unaffordable. I have a cleaner who keeps home clean but it is a bit cluttered. Would love more cupboards or shelving but honestly cannot afford it. I couldnt live in a home so tidy you are afraid to move in case you make room look untidy

Lots of people live like this it’s not your place to judge. I bet she would be upset if she knew what you think of her home.
Why do you visit if you can’t stand it? Go out.
I’m going to look at my mop and bucket in the loo along with the shoes and boots .

I like that “One (wo) man’s clutter is another (wo)man’s ‘lived-in’”
In other words
I like my bits n bobs around me as they make the house homely
You have quite a lot of stuff
Her house is an absolute mess...
Even the thread title is judgemental but if she is a friend and you enjoy regular “wine nights” I know which I think is more important!

She may think that your house is sterile and unhomely!. One person's 'clutter' is another person's 'lived in'. It's really none of your business, is it?

Haha. Gave me a giggle. Had I known you were coming I would have done what I do for my child’s OCD spouse and MIL and swept the bigger stuff into a spare room and smaller stuff into a box which also disappears into the spare room.
On the kitchen windowsill above the radiator which I am facing at this minute is a Christmas ornament made by a grandson, a pot full of pegs for the washing, two paint brushes drying, an advent calendar, containers of safety pins and thumbtacks, my telephone book, a little rabbit basket with cards in it for hairdresser, taxi cabs, the gym etc., 25 beans drying for next year’s runner beans, the house phone and a piece of card with my daughter’s phone number in so my grandson can call her if I became ill when looking after him. Oh and the radiator has a lovely small tin on it drying and a tea towel doing the same.
As for the under the stairs loo, it houses all my small tools (in matching crates, including saws and glues and garden trowels etc. As well as the steam mop and hoover. When we bought this house 40 years ago there was a bath under the slope of the stairs!

If anyone gave me that Marie Kontos book I would likely crown them with it.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I don't believe that most people in cluttered houses really enjoy the situation, unless the clutter is an organised collection and their hobby. I think it happens because after a certain point the thought of sorting it out becomes overwhelming and then it keeps getting put off. Subsequent items coming in are then harder to put away since the places that would have been their homes are now stuffed with things that shouldn't be there, so it all snowballs exponentially. A close friend who is good at tidying can be a godsend offering to help make a start.

Live and let live. Even Marie Kondo has opened an online shop!!

Imagine how hurt your friend would be if she knew you had written this post! Surely the important thing is that she makes you feel welcome AND provides wine! Although I keep my kitchen and bathroom clean, I do tend to accumulate clutter and sometimes it can get a bit overwhelming. If I tidy everything away, often I won’t be able to find stuff! Try to close your eyes to all her clutter, relax and just enjoy her friendship.

Oh ellen that’s quite hurtful in no way did I make a bitter post I didn’t agree with one of your ideas and I m allowed to express that without being called bitter
If the friend asked for help or is expressing discomfort in her muddle of course that’s brilliant to suggest helping but to suggest to someone’s who is obviously comfortable with her situation that you can help clear it up doesn’t seem right to me but to be called bitter over a different take on a subject is pretty extreme

Oh God we've probably all got a messy friend, my closest pal is very similar, although not a hoarder just doesn't clear as she goes. I remember being around her when she unloaded her dishwasher and put all the clean items amongst the dirty ones waiting to go in and just left them like that, did think "how strange" but not my place to comment Another time after peeling potatoes she left all the peelings in the sink and then came back to them later and said "who left all this crap in the sink?" I did muster my tiny voice with a "you did" on that occasion. She leaves piles of everything everywhere, but that's her way and her home. Best leave well alone I'd say OP.

I don’t think we should attribute personal characteristics to people on the basis of whether they are tidy or untidy. I am sure there are unpleasant and pleasant people who are tidy and untidy. I find only having the possessions you need and not having too much unnecessary stuff very relaxing and less exhausting to keep reasonably tidy and clean. But some people love their stuff.

Some people are just like this. I probably would be if it wasn't for tidy minded DH. If the worktops are cluttered she won't be using them for food prep anyway.

If you are a tidy person it can make you slightly twitchy to see masses of 'stuff' that you would love to clear away, but it is her home - please relax and enjoy your friend and the wine evenings and try not to look at the clutter. I got a little bit obsessive about cleaning years ago. A dear friend who is arty and clever gave me a tiny dark wood hand made frame, with a pressed flower in the corner and in her beautiful script she had painted 'An immaculate home is a sign of a wasted life'. I took that to heart and have never regretted it.

Tidy house tidy mind.
But not everyone thinks that way.