Points system for immigrants from next year

GillT57 if you find sanity/knowledge on these threads do let me know.

I haven't been on for about a week - perhaps a bit less - and I come back on from quite a difficult enough real world. Why, oh why do people think their opinion has to be a put down of others in general. "They" don't do this. "They" aren't like we used to be. Even "they" don't speak English. It doesn't matter if they are just from another country, young, or whatever. It's any group they can't see themselves as part of.

Why has this really nasty strain become so prolific? If anyone got us into difficulties "they" must have been in power not trying to earn a crust in a God awful job, under the most basic of conditions somewhere and now people are suggesting it's okay to send people who are lame, sick or just as busy as they are/were doing something else, out to pick up the result of their prejudice. Anyone but them, in fact.

I do not understand where this basically unpleasant, disagreeable, vicious culture has come from. Was it always there? Did people know better than to do it in front of people who recognised them and now don't care because no one knows who they are?

I have met no one who behaves like this - at least in public - in the last week. Gransnet seems to bring out the very worst in Grans. And I know some of you will complain that I have challenge your post, your point of view but you, personally, said those things and gave those opinions. You are not an amorphous, not actually real "they".

If care workers were inhouse with the Councils As They Used To Be then the charges would not be high.
It is the Agencies that make the money

So going back to council Home Help style would be a simple solution.

Vegansrock
There are very few places in cities that are more than half an hours bus ride from their nearest open farm or pick your own farm so no excuses.

Dont inflict your own prejudices on others!.

GGMK3 I have tried to give my view and the reason for it in a fair way that is not offensive to foreign workers.
Why shouldn't people have Care from people who speak their language?
Also the Foreign workers are being exploited by a lot of these Agencies that do not pay them much.
I tried to explain but I guess you didn't read it?
They are charged high rents to share a room. That is not ok
They get charged extras for car insurance etc
So in the end who here is winning?
Not the person receiving care
Not the Carer
Not the local person who needs work but cannot live on the pittance paid by Agencies.

Only the Agency wins.
It is a partial lie that we need foreign workers We need people to be paid better and also treated better.
Carers are treated really badly by their employers. ie The Agency

No more Zero hour contracts No more Gig economy.

There is a very reasonable explanation about the areas which will be adversely affected on the BBC website. The link is here hopefully.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-51560370

One way and another I come across quite a few migrant workers, most stay in the UK because they can earn much more than they can at home. They are all ages from students to 60 yr olds. The nursery school next door employ a Bulgarian couple, late 50s, he is a handyman she is a cook, both little English. They live in a mobile home for free and are paid minimum wage - nice people that are much better of than at home.

There are those that are exploited, the majority are much better off and stay because they want to.

Sigh. Davidhs, your ignorance lack of understanding of other people's lives is breathtaking. Maybe instead of a working parent finishing a day's work, picking up their children then hopping on a bus to the nearest fantasy farm to pick their fruit and veg, maybe you could do it for them? As tp those who think that carer agencies are making a fortune, just google it. The statistics are frightening, the number of agencies throwing in the towel is very high. Just a bit of very simple maths for those of you who seem to have the answer to all the economic problems we face; Pay somebody minimum wage £8.21 for say 6 hours a day, plus mileage of say 20p per mile, plus paid holidays of 5.2 weeks per year ( puts about 10% on pay rate). Comes to roughly just over £60 per day. Within those 6 hours they should be able to make 4 hourly visits, perhaps charged at £20 per hour. Doesn't leave a lot for training, covering sickness, maternity, office costs etc does it? Even the big players with the economies of scale are withdrawing. Everyone wants carers to be well paid, well respected, but nobody wants to pay for it.

I cannot agree with the point the agencies exploit foreign care workers and do not pay them enough. There is a minimum wage paid to foreign and British workers Its al as well. So are we saying brits are being exploited as well? As for going and picking our own fruit and veg lets get real on this, how is my disabled daughter going to do this, pay extra for care staff (if we can get them) to take her or how am I going to get there without a car?

With this points system I see inflation hitting the roof and social care descending into chaos, care home fees going up or closing and lack of home support care. But then that's what people voted for, as long as we don't have
EU workers that is all ok.

GillT57

Not true It is the Austerity budget from Govt that has wiped out inhouse Carers.
It wasn't an issue before.
This situation has been created so that business can underpay workers.

Another detail about foreign Care Workers is that many of them have to leave their children at home with relatives.
That is plain wrong.
The child misses mum and mum misses child/ren

Excellent posts Davidhs and * Pinkquartz*

I see nothing wrong with a points based immigration system in general, there will be exemptions for the areas that need
Lower paid workers.
Hopefully wages will go up from next year for people and the government will invest in training young British people, bringing back bursaries for nursing etc.

Fruit and veg picking will always need immigrants, who come over for the season, no reason why that should stop .

GillT
The carer industry is one area that I have no knowledge although I do hear of agencies and homes closing because councils won’t pay the rate needed.

Your working parent example is ridiculous they wouldnt go after a days work, that’s silly, it’s a trip in school holidays or weekends, why do you have to be deliberately obtuse.

GG3, the " they" thing is part of the delights of social media. People can merrily tap away about other groups and feel all smug and sanctimonious.

I get the same feeling when I'm at home watching the Island with Bear Grylls.

If we lose touch with our humanity and continue othering, we are lost.

Barmy

There are not too many parents leaving children at home, most migrants are young singles or couples, men leaving families at home or older couples with adult families. Almost all are planning to go home with their money after a few years. Most would have arrived with an agency, many leave the agency for a permanent job quickly

GillT57 I am fully aware of the difficulties of working families.
My response about Pick Your Own fruit and vegetables was in response to another poster, a chat, a reminiscence in fact, but of course got jumped on by another poster who took it that I was making an observation on how people should live.
Not surprisingly.

I know much about the difficulties of employing local and migrant farm workers too.

Fennel, yes, Australia has the same problem as here in that young local low skilled workers are reluctant to work on farms, despite the fact that it is very well paid there with even casual workers being entitled to sick, holiday and pension benefits funded by the employer.
Young unemployed locals are sent by the benefits office to work on local farms but often don't turn up after a day or two, won't work hard, and therefore immigrant labour and backpackers from around the world are essential to get the produce to market.
Australia has a system whereby if anyone wants a second year working visa, they have to prove they spent 3 months doing farm work.

Many of the women working as Care Workers do leave their children at home.

I have also known a case where a the mother liked England and brought over her entire family....only soon to say that they cannot live on her wages any more. just like an English family.
the pay is too low.
So the Agencies recruit from the EU.

Disclaimer:

The above post, for anyone who may be interested, was an explanation for Fennel

It in no way constitutes an opinion on whether or not the UK should operate a system like the Australian one.

EllanVannin Those were the days, eh!
And the sun always shone

I do know that not all leave voters were racists, but we can be pretty certain that all (or nearly all) of British racists voted leave, like the person who said she'd voted leave because there were too many Somalis in Bristol.

I do wonder how these folk will react when they find that the EU immigrants (mainly white folk) are being replaced by immigrants from elsewhere (mainly black and brown folk).

UK has had this system for non EU immigration for years so it is not new and is therefore aimed solely at EU citizens.

Personally i think it is just bluster from the government to appease Brexit voters. There are so many possible exceptions that it is highly unlikely to change immigration patterns very much. The allowance for seasonal workers has already been changed from 2500 to 10000 and the earnings level dropped to 25600. Every time there is a staff shortage , in the NHS for example , they will be classed as 'essential' and the points system changed.

The main issue will be that it will put off many skilled workers either because of the earnings component, the language component or just by creating an atmosphere where they do not feel wanted.

It may force employers to train UK people and also hopefully force up wages for those in hospitality, care, construction etc. Remember any wage rises will be passed onto customers so costs will rise in all these areas.

The idea that it will mop up long term unemployed is fatuous. As a business no one wants to recruit long term unemployed. Many have literacy issues, addiction problems,mental health issues. No employer has the time or resource to manage these people back into the work force.

"With this points system I see inflation hitting the roof and social care descending into chaos, care home fees going up or closing"

Australia has had a points system for years, their social care and care homes are, in my experience, excellent. The cost of living is also much lower than in UK

One thing I think we are all agreed on is that social care work should be recognised as a skilled profession with proper training and paid much more than the minimum wage

Perhaps social care should be integrated with health care. There are far too many cases of "bed-blocking" because old folk cannot be discharged from hospital without proper social care support.

I am delighted by the news. All the colleges will be offering ESOL courses in the day time and the evenings. Outreach and community learning will start up again, opportunities for work placed learning will be funded ,provision will be made for those with additional cultural needs, there will be absolutely loads of work for teachers. It's win win.

Rainbows and unicorns - how lovely!!!

The cost of living is also much lower than in UK
Whilst I agree with much of your post WadesNan I'm not sure that the cost of living is much lower than the UK.

Property in some areas is extremely expensive and food has gone up in price over a very few years. Nor am I sure about the level of care in some homes, as we have an elderly relative in one which seems at first inspection to be wonderful, but the actual care may not be up to the standard one would hope for.