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Fronted phrases (I think). Grammar help, please?

(49 Posts)
Doodledog Mon 25-May-20 20:37:58

Does anyone know the correct term for phrases at the start of a sentence that describe continuous action, before the tense of the sentence settles into the past perfect?

I may have described that badly, but the sort of thing I mean is '*Running for the bus*, Sophie thought about her holidays.' or '*Looking through the photo album*, I remembered when we climbed Everest.'?

I've googled 'fronted adverbials', but those phrases don't seem to take the place of an adverb. Or do they? grin They do sort of add meaning to the main verb, but there is not an adverb in sight (as I understand the term, anyway). I was good at grammar once upon a time, and understood the rules and how to explain them, but all the terms for parts of speech seem to have changed, and to be honest, I am more confused after googling than I was before.

My sister is trying to help her daughter to help her 8 year old granddaughter with her English schoolwork, and the little one is getting frustrated whilst the adults are all bewildered.

Kate54 Mon 25-May-20 20:50:11

Subordinate or secondary clause. Your example sentence, ‘Running for the bus, Sophie thought about her holiday’ breaks down like this:
Sophie thought about her holiday - main clause, makes sense on its own.
Running for the bus - secondary clause, does not make sense on its own, adds extra detail to the sentence.
Nothing to do with adverbs!
Secondary clauses can go at the beginning, middle or end of the sentence depending on emphasis required.

Kate54 Mon 25-May-20 20:54:02

Oh I’ve just re-read the very beginning of your query and can see that you may be talking about a specific type of secondary clause.......but it’s still a secondary clause!
No idea what a fronted adverbial is but hey I only taught secondary school English. Sounds as if primary school children are being over-taught!

Kate54 Mon 25-May-20 20:56:37

Might throw ‘present participle’ into the ring.

MissTree Mon 25-May-20 21:04:10

Never heard of fronted adverbials before.
Like Kate I managed to get an English degree without them . What am I missing ?
P.S. Is it like the latin ablative absolute ? I’ve managed the last 50 odd years without these either. Sigh. ?

Doodledog Mon 25-May-20 21:06:06

Thanks, Kate54, but yes, it is more specific than a subordinate clause - or at any rate it is a particular type of one. The action has happened, and the clause in question describes what the subject is doing whilst it happened, but in the present continuous.

It's an odd construction, IMO.

Doodledog Mon 25-May-20 21:09:15

Fronted adverbials are a new way of describing adverbial phrases, but they are more general than that.

I also have an English degree, but they didn't exist back then grin. I don't know what an ablative absolute is, either, but thanks, MissTree.

Kate54 Mon 25-May-20 21:11:47

Intrigued now so Googled and found this :

www.theschoolrun.com/what-are-fronted-adverbials

MissTree Mon 25-May-20 21:12:25

Well ! You learn something new every day.

Kate54 Mon 25-May-20 21:16:56

Over-complicating matters if you ask me. Probably Michael Gove’s fault.

growstuff Mon 25-May-20 21:23:50

Yes, it's a fronted adverbial, which is a term the KS2 Literacy curriculum seems to have invented. It's adverbial because it adds information to a main verb eg when, how or where.

An ablative absolute in Latin has some similarities.

Doodledog Mon 25-May-20 23:03:53

Thank you all.

I still think it is an odd construction, and must confuse children who are learning about tenses. I know that in the end the action all happened in the past, but the use of the verb in the present continuous muddies the waters, and goodness knows how you then move on to teaching actual adverbs.

I’m trying to think of how my examples could be better phrased and came up with ‘ ‘Sophie thought about her holidays (or ‘was thinking about her holidays’) as she ran for the bus.’

Is that better, old-fashioned, or just different?

Doodledog Mon 25-May-20 23:04:28

Or am I over-thinking? grin

welbeck Mon 25-May-20 23:16:44

this seems a horrific way to teach english language to children, and may well put many of them off for life.
what is the point of it.
they seem to be forcing obscure terms from linguistics onto little children. no wonder so many of them struggle with schoolwork.
it sounds worse than learning by rote in victorian times.
why can't they stick to comprehension, some spellings, precis, and composition writing.
neither does it make them more employable; i would want someone who could take down a message correctly, and write a good business letter, with attention to detail and reliability.
who would want someone to parse a sentence, unless it was for a job to cram it into the next victims/children.

Callistemon Mon 25-May-20 23:17:03

Fronted adverbials.

Possibly they were just known as adverbial phrases when I was at school.
However, is it because they appear at the front of the sentence?

eg earlier this evening, I read about fronted adverbials on GN.

BBC Bitesize is very useful for helping with home schooling.
'Whilst browsing the internet, I discovered BBC Bitesize.'

Callistemon Mon 25-May-20 23:18:33

I agree, welbeck

annodomini Mon 25-May-20 23:44:12

I found out about fronted adverbials when I did a bit of tutoring with a Y6 child who was a nervous wreck on the way to SATS. I then asked my GS, at the same stage, if he knew about these strange things and he gave me a textbook answer. he is now in Y10 and it's a fair bet that he has forgotten what a fronted adverbial is. Why should anyone have to remember useless, abstruse grammatical points?

Callistemon Mon 25-May-20 23:46:35

To pass useless SATS, of course, annodomini!

GagaJo Tue 26-May-20 00:00:18

Adverb = adds description to a verb.
Fronted adverbial = starts with an adverb (fronts the sentence).

SWIFTLY running, she just managed to catch the bus.
LOUDLY screaming, the children left the building.
(Poor examples, but hopefully they demonstrate.)

GagaJo Tue 26-May-20 00:03:28

I think children can enjoy learning grammar if it's done in little snippets AND if they can see the instant improvement in their own writing with little grammar tricks.

I tell them they're learning to help them hack their writing. They love thinking they're using a shortcut.

V3ra Tue 26-May-20 00:55:45

The examples given make for a more exciting and dramatic sentence, I think, than the same words in a different order:

"Loudly screaming, the children left the building."
"The children left the building, screaming loudly."

The first sentence makes me wonder what made the children scream and why they needed to leave the building.
The second version has the same details, but as the children have left the building the fact they are screaming seems less important.

Witzend Tue 26-May-20 09:03:10

I can’t believe they’ve made primary-stage English so complicated! I was very well taught at that stage, but grammar largely consisted of being able to name a noun (proper or common), verb, adverb, adjective, conjunction, phrase or clause, etc.

What I’d like to know is, are today’s children being taught the difference between its/it’s, your/you’re, who’s/whose, there/they’re/their etc.* - not to mention where to put an apostrophe - because it’s very evident that a good many of whole generations of children have been taught such things either very poorly or not at all.
*and loose/lose!

Callistemon Tue 26-May-20 10:11:56

Which age groups would benefit from this, do you think, Gagajo?

If you're teaching older pupils ie Y5, 6 and above, I can understand this will help them to enhance and develop their writing style.

However, perhaps most in Year 3 need to learn the basics of grammar such as Witzend describes.

annodomini Tue 26-May-20 10:28:23

By the time I reached the end of primary school we had to analyse complex sentences in terms of three or four kinds of subordinate clauses, but never did anyone refer to adverbial clauses or phrases as 'fronted'! Stylistically, putting the adverbial clause or phrase before the main clause or after it, alters the balance of the sentence and can change the tone.
'When I saw the time, I panicked' has a different tone from 'I panicked when I saw the time.'
I loved grammar at school!

Caramac Tue 26-May-20 10:31:08

Fronted adverbial I think.